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[Reelya]

Also, think of it this way: maybe you'll be hit by a truck and never need your insurance. Other than sudden accidents which kill you outright, eventually you'll need some serious medical care. If you end up not needing health insurance at all, your whole life, then you're not going to really miss the money, since you'll be dead, in some sort of sudden way that couldn't be helped.

But also think about your family, your kids and your friends. If everyone's paying into the health system, then when any one of those people needs treatment, it's there. Sure, you're paying for some people you don't know, but people you don't know are also paying for people you do know.

[Grim Portent]

Oh, that... is a startlingly good point, actually. I'm still uneasy with the idea of a mandate to buy something on general principle, but perhaps I'll have to do a bit more research before I formulate a definite opinion.

Health insurance is kind of comparable to car insurance. In general it's one of those things that works best if everyone has it, for various reasons, but the only ways to make sure everyone has it is if it's illegal not to or if the government pays for it all out of taxes.

[Silverthrone]

Right, unsolicited cents (2) approaching.

First of all, I really don't care for the new attitude that being rude equals being honest and therefore a good trait. Sometimes it might, most of the time it's someone who won't bother themselves with behaving like a grown-up. Sometimes, rudeness is necessary to be honest. Sometimes, rudeness is just being thoughtless and careless because treating people with a modicum of care takes energy. Energy that other people should, of course, spend on being not-honest back. Trump is not using rudeness as a weapon to tear apart a web of lies. He's being rude because he doesn't care, because it's easy, and because he's been in a position for most of his life when he doesn't have to consider what other people feel, even if he did care.

Second, it's not as if he's been rude over a dinner conversation, or done something mildly inapproriate, like calling Mrs. Nice's apple pie a cowpat right at the table. Those things he said were degrading and very unpleasant to hear.
Third, that is simply not how a president, a President, of the United States of America should behave himself. It's not worthy of the office. A president shouldn't blurt out a rude, hurtful, generalised statement in diplomatic affairs and expect it to be fine, because "What? I'm being honest". It's just unseemly for a president of a global super power, and a diplomatic danger. His staff would have to spend far too much time on damage control and reining in the worst of it. Unless there is a massive attitude change on the moment he takes office, which is unlikely. No, he probably wouldn't nuke Iran during a temper tantrum, he's not a comic book character. But careless words and actions can undo a lot of progress, and lead to a lot of trouble for everyone.

That is why rudeness and that kind of creepy natter does mean things, certainly when you're vying to become leader of the United States.

[Frumple]

I mean, I guess alternate means of funding could be acquired. I'd be mildly impressed if someone could say that with a straight face, though.

[Reelya]

Maybe they can stick all the immigrants into those FEMA camps we keep hearing about. Considering the conspiracy theories, FEMA has all the budget for that stuff.

[Sergarr]

Oh, that... is a startlingly good point, actually. I'm still uneasy with the idea of a mandate to buy something on general principle, but perhaps I'll have to do a bit more research before I formulate a definite opinion.

A better analogy here would be taxes. You pay taxes in order for government to maintain the infrastructure upon which all private enterprises can grow. Infrastructure has this curious thing that it's unprofitable for the person who builds it, but it's profitable for the society as a whole to have it. A sort-of extreme economy of scale. This is what makes governments fundamentally different from private enterprises - while private enterprises strive to maximize their own profits, governments strive (or should strive, in theory) to maximize profits of everyone else.

[Loud Whispers]

@RK haha fair enough

[Folly]

It'd be nice if we could recognize that humanity is not made up entirely of asexual robots who perfectly follow acceptable protocol 24/7. There are a lot of different types of people out there, and just because you have not personally experienced cultures which acknowledge their baser nature and express themselves unabashedly, does not mean that those cultures do not exist.

Yeah, and guess what, none of that justifies sexual assault, because the United States is not One of those cultures, and here, that's exactly what the shit he was describing was. If you don't believe me, read the damn thing yourself; somebody else just posted it.

Nobody is trying to justify sexual assault. We're trying to contextualize a conversation, the likes of which are commonplace in many circles, yes right here in the United States. People talk about unhealthy levels of sexual aggression and the chatter is dismissed as what it is, just empty words. This is something that happens. It's not in good taste, nor appropriate at a professional level, but it happens just the same. We don't have to like it or accept it, but to paint Trump as anything worse than a bawdy playboy with poor self-control is simply a gross exaggeration of the facts.

[PTTG??]

Just for a brief look at something non-presidential.

Praying for the oil patch: Oklahoma prayer initiative focuses on energy industry

It is not controversial to state that there have been no actual miracles in recorded history. Whatever God(s) (however you precieve them/it to be) uses to decide to intercede, the threshold for miracles are pretty high.

So what you're saying here, is you think that it's somehow relevant to ask for your Gods to break a 2000+-year streak of letting catastrophes happen for the sole expressed purpose of helping some very wealthy companies remain wealthy?

[mainiac]

the likes of which are commonplace in many circles

It is not commonplace in many circles.  Any circle it is common place in is horrible.  This sole act is enough to place someone outside the realm of human decency.  Any social circle that doesn't disapprove of sexual assault is a bad social circle.

trying to contextualize a conversation

Let's contextualize:
-A man brags about sexually assaulting women
-The man is currently on trial for rape
-The man has faced lawsuits in the past for sexual assault
-The man has dozens of accusations of sexual assault

If this isn't enough shit for you then what in the name of Zeus's asshole is enough?  If this context does not qualify as sexual assault what possible thing would?  Do you need for him to sexually assault Angela Merkel on live television while she yells "Nein!"?  What possible shit would do it for you if this wouldn't?

There is a point at which you stop asking questions and start lying by pretending questions dont have answers.

[Folly]

the likes of which are commonplace in many circles

It is not commonplace in many circles.  Any circle it is common place in is horrible.  This sole act is enough to place someone outside the realm of human decency.  Any social circle that doesn't disapprove of sexual assault is a bad social circle.

Yeah, welcome to the human race buddy. There are a lot of horrible people out there. You don't have to agree with them, but if you want to have a political opinion that you can honestly say is unbiased, you do have to acknowledge them.

trying to contextualize a conversation

Let's contextualize:
-A man brags about sexually assaulting women
-The man is currently on trial for rape
-The man has faced lawsuits in the past for sexual assault
-The man has dozens of accusations of sexual assault

If this isn't enough shit for you then what in the name of Zeus's asshole is enough?  If this context does not qualify as sexual assault what possible thing would?  Do you need for him to sexually assault Angela Merkel on live television while she yells "Nein!"?  What possible shit would do it for you if this wouldn't?

There is a point at which you stop asking questions and start lying by pretending questions dont have answers.

Describing any part of the video in question as 'bragging about sexual assault' is simply an inaccurate interpretation of his words. At worst, he bragged that he could sexually assault someone and get away with it, which is very different from bragging about actually sexually assaulting someone.

As for accusations and trials, I'd love to discuss those, but as a separate subject. Those are not things he mentioned on the video being discussed, and to my knowledge the video has not been used as any form of evidence in those trials.

[Max™]

Look, I love you fuckers, no homo (_{cept you, LW, nod-and-a-wink, necrobacon drops the panties!}) and I got no problem with your political positions that are serious enough to want to start whomping on people. There are lots of people that need a good whomping, but most of the time you aren't beating the shit out of an actual pederast-nazi-terrorist, and it sucks dealing with hurting someone after it's done.

May feel damn good at the time when you're all righteous'D up, but whether you gave worse or got worse, you're still actively trying to inflict pain on someone else who just woke up one day and realized they were a little piece of the universe experiencing itself. Being on the receiving end of that sucks, being unable to protect your loved ones from it is one of those things where I don't ever want to say I went through worse than they did, but little kids shouldn't be dealing with shit that leaves you struggling to tame a rage issue into your 30's, which dwarf fortress actually helped me with (THANKS TOADY, LOVE YA MAN!) so I've got a nice fuzzy association with the boards and game and shit here going.

I don't want you guys rageful and angry and wanting to hurt each other, and I can't make any sort of internet tough guy statements, but I'm the oldest of 6, I'm bubba, so if you would be so kind as to fly down here to Memphis and line up so I can slap you upside the head and give you a hug and talk shit out, I'm here.

Now, given the cases I've seen over the years of women popping up, saying they had a rich guy with a lot of connections make things "uncomfortable" to be charitable, and given how few of them tend to be say... independently wealthy and connected to powerful people like lawyers, judges, employers, etc... I'm not going to take the word of the guy we know has been recorded casually bragging about doing this shit over that of a growing number of women saying they took a settlement or a deal or a payout or simply couldn't afford to keep fighting shit, and are now looking back and noticing "well shit, it wasn't just me" and saying something.

Given the opportunity, I would do everything in my power to get that slimy orange garbagesack to hit me, and I would enjoy hurting him, because I could rest easy knowing he would never have a "why did this happen to me? maybe I was wrong? I should try to be a better person" moment afterwards.

Rage sucks though, it sucks a lot, I'm glad my dad wussed out and offed himself because I don't have to deal with a premeditated murder charge, and my mom is safe. I'm still pissed that I didn't get to torture him, like he tortured her, and that is a fucked up situation to be in, and I've been like this all. my. life. 20 years that monster has been wormfood, and I remain pissed that I wasn't able to get strong enough fast enough to punish him.


Do any of you thinking about supporting Trump, or who know people who are/will, for any reason believe that "the party of wholesome american christian family values" should be handing more power to someone who quite happily used the power he already had to do the shit he brags about doing to young women?

Let's say, hypothetically mind you, maybe he's too old to do that anymore, and we can be confident that he'll never do this shit again.

Is that really the example you want to set for young men?

"Get enough power and you can do whatever you want to women as long as nobody winds up dead, and hey, get rich enough and you can deal with that too."

I mean, my position there is clear, and my situation is--god I fucking hope--more extreme than most, but I think reducing the number of young men wanting to do that shit, reducing the number of young women who will have to go through it, and hey... cutting down on fucked up childhoods like mine... that's not really what anyone could call a bad outcome, is it?


I chuckle at the crazy shit he says and does, but I've long held a pure easy hatred for the guy, the same as I do for any serial abuser, it's unfortunate... wait, no, I'm fucking glad most people don't have such an easy time accepting that people do this shit to other people. It sucks that it's still taking this long for it to sink in that he's unfit to hold power over others, but that is the truth of the matter.

Unsurprisingly, I'm disgusted by Bill abusing his power the way he did, and I'd be pretty fucking pissed off if he had been going around bragging about doing it like Trump has. Maybe he did, maybe he reformed completely, I don't know, I don't have to trust him or forgive him, and don't think Hillary should have, and think her intimidating victims is also disgusting... so I have the situation where I am not allowed to blame her because of who I am, and damn well don't gotta like her, but it's clear that she is obviously qualified and ready to handle being president.

So, sorry for the infodumpy rant but CHILL THE HELL OUT!

[mainiac]

Describing any part of the video in question as 'bragging about sexual assault' is simply an inaccurate interpretation of his words.

Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

This is a description of sexual assault.  If a court of law decided beyond a reasonable doubt that this event happened then each time it happened would be a case of sexual assault.

Hilariously Deplorably the wikipedia article for sexual assault has been edited since the time of this videos released to remove the statement that forcible kissing is sexual assault.  Because horrible people exist.

So lets go back to what the page was last month: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sexual_assault&diff=741058753&oldid=741058210

[PTTG??]

First off Max, can I... can I give you a hug?

Second:

Do any of you thinking about supporting Trump, or who know people who are/will, for any reason believe that "the party of wholesome american christian family values" should be handing more power to someone who quite happily used the power he already had to do the shit he brags about doing to young women?

That is the best and most succinct indictment of the Republican party I've ever heard. Someone should shout that out from the rooftops all across the country.

[Frumple]

Interesting news, though. Apparently the RNC's outright gone dark -- not responding to calls, attempts at communication, nothing. They're supposed to have some kind of call whatsit around 5-ish in one timezone or another, but... yeah. Could be a sight to see when they come out of it. Going to be a spectacle regardless. More of one, anyway.