Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Reelya]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_States

Before the Welfare Reform Act of 1996, welfare assistance was "once considered an open-ended right"

This is my main point. Until 1996 welfare in the USA resembled how Europe traditionally has done it - nobody starves. This idea of throwing people into the gutter and letting them die because they can't work - that's a very recent American concept. Well I guess you kept food stamps, but I'm not sure - can you actually pay your rent with food stamps? If not, they do nothing to prevent homelessness, and are actually much more authoritarian than just paying a welfare check.

Uh... that isn't quite how it worked out.

Anyone else remember the "Contract with America" stuff?

The Personal Responsibility Act
An act to discourage illegitimacy and teen pregnancy by reforming and cutting cash welfare and related programs. This would be achieved by prohibiting welfare to mothers under 18 years of age, denying increased Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) for additional children while on welfare, and enacting a two-years-and-out provision with work requirements to promote individual responsibility. H.R.4, the Family Self-Sufficiency Act, included provisions giving food vouchers to unwed mothers under 18 in lieu of cash AFDC benefits, denying cash AFDC benefits for additional children to people on AFDC, requiring recipients to participate in work programs after 2 years on AFDC, complete termination of AFDC payments after five years, and suspending driver and professional licenses of people who fail to pay child support. H.R.4, passed by the US House 234-199, March 23, 1995, and passed by the US Senate 87-12, September 19, 1995. The Act was vetoed by President Clinton, but the alternative Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act which offered many of the same policies was enacted August 22, 1996.

The relevant PRWORA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act

But TANF is from the 1996 one. And it did do what I said it did. It's disingenuous to cite the one he vetoed, then gloss over what the one he approved actually did.

President Bill Clinton signed PRWORA into law on August 22, 1996, fulfilling his 1992 campaign promise to "end welfare as we have come to know it". PRWORA instituted Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), which became effective July 1, 1997. TANF replaced the Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program—which had been in effect since 1935.

Three assistant secretaries at the Department of Health and Human Services, Mary Jo Bane, Peter B. Edelman, and Wendell E. Primus, resigned to protest the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Assistance_for_Needy_Families
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aid_to_Families_with_Dependent_Children

Peter Edelman, an assistant secretary in the Department of Health and Human Services, resigned from the Clinton administration in protest of Clinton signing the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, which he called, "The worst thing Bill Clinton has done." According to Edelman, the 1996 welfare reform law destroyed the safety net. It increased poverty, lowered income for single mothers, put people from welfare into homeless shelters, and left states free to eliminate welfare entirely. It moved mothers and children from welfare to work, but many of them aren't making enough to survive. Many of them were pushed off welfare rolls because they didn't show up for an appointment, when they had no transportation to get to the appointment, or weren't informed about the appointment, said Edelman.

Whereas the one Clinton vetoes states "complete termination of AFDC payments after five years", TANF replaces AFDC completely, and gives you a lifetime quota of 60 months. Same deal, and it allows states to cut back further.

[Max™]

My point was this wasn't Clinton pushing for it by himself, or his baby, or against some counter program, it is definitely shitty and we would be better off if he had an alternative to push for but he didn't.

[Sheb]

Sorry for the extra Trump news, but hey.

Trump complained in 2012 that Obama was only paying 20.5% tax on his salary. I guess he isn't smart enough.

Also, apparently he played a cameo role in a softcore Playboy porn video.

[Max™]

No way am I clicking on a link involving Trump and anything in any way porn related, softcore or not.

Also noticed that my reply to Reelya about the TANF thing might be ambiguous in the sense that it could suggest I was saying Clinton isn't at fault, he is, but so are Gingrich and them. Could phrase it as "didn't put forward an alternative to push for either" more accurately, but the idea that AFDC was equivalent to the Nordic model is kinda silly.

Nordic welfare model

The Nordic welfare model refers to the welfare policies of the Nordic countries, which also tie into their labor market policies. The Nordic model of welfare is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.[31]

While there are differences among different Nordic countries, they all share a broad commitment to social cohesion, a universal nature of welfare provision in order to safeguard individualism by providing protection for vulnerable individuals and groups in society, and maximizing public participation in social decision-making. It is characterized by flexibility and openness to innovation in the provision of welfare. The Nordic welfare systems are mainly funded through taxation.[32]

Despite the common values, the Nordic countries take different approaches to the practical administration of the welfare state. Denmark features a high degree of private sector provision of public services and welfare, alongside an assimilation immigration policy. Iceland's welfare model is based on a "welfare-to-work" (see: workfare) model, while part of Finland's welfare state includes the voluntary sector playing a significant role in providing care for the elderly. Norway relies most extensively on public provision of welfare.[32]

I grew up in a household that received food stamps at various points, though I usually thought of it as Title IV, rather than AFDC or TANF or whatnot, it was one part of the social security program, and screwing over any of it sucks. If it was purely Clinton doing it I don't see why republicans wouldn't have been jumping up and down screaming about it, but it was a place where they agreed with him. It would be an amusing "a ha, you've triggered my trap card" moment for Trump to start attacking Hillary for Bill doing that, for sure, but that would need him to overlook the big neon signs pointing at the "attacking a married woman for the infidelity of her spouse" land mine saying "JUMP RIGHT HERE AND WIN A PRIZE" first.

[Rolan7]

My brother was on food stamps a couple years ago, and we were actually kinda surprised at how far they go (*assuming* you have the time and infrastructure to cook meals instead of relying on expensive pre-packaged food).  He actually had us friends come over a lot to help eat it all.  But again, he was only working part time and had a proper kitchen.

Not sure what my point is... it certainly doesn't fix homelessness, but it's food stamps/EBT so that's not really its purpose.  It's a good program, and it's actually a good restriction...  He and I lived with welfare and disability queens for a few rough years.  People with kids to feed.  Making it harder to spend the resources on booze and light drugs really is a good thing (some people still try to sell their EBT credit for cash, at a loss, but it's still a useful disincentive).  They were actually really nice people, just listless and hooked on their vices.  I sure can't judge them for *that* without being hypocritical.

There but for the grace of luck and studying *really* hard in high school go I...

[Sergarr]

Trump’s Claim of $916 Million Loss Shows He’s a ‘Genius’: Rudy Giuliani

Also in this link:

"Don't you think a man who has this kind of economic genius is a lot better for the United States than a woman, and the only thing she's ever produced is a lot of work for the FBI checking out her emails," Giuliani told ABC's "This Week."

Trump's campaign: not even once.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Wow, some of the claims of misogyny against Clinton are tenuous, but that's just flat-out.

Leave it to Giuliani to swallow the foot, ankle, and whole thigh.

[RedKing]

So.....no discussion on Donald Trump's No-Good, Very Bad 24 Hours?

Exhibit A: NYTimes released a story wherein they were sent (and authenticated) portions of Trump's 1995 tax returns, wherein he declared a $916 million operating loss, which may well have allowed him to avoid paying any taxes for the next 18 years. I have to think someone in the Clinton campaign knew this bombshell was about to drop, because they teed that shit up like gold in the debates.

Three of Clinton's attacks in the debates?
1) Trump isn't releasing his attacks because he's hiding something.
2) Maybe he's not as good at business as he says he is.
3) Maybe he's been avoiding paying taxes (which Trump added to by retorting that "that makes him smart").

This story would appear to confirm all three.


Exhibit B: As this is hitting the presses, Trump himself is busy in Pennsylvania delivering the most incoherent, rambling speech to date. It was apparent that he was supposed to deliver an attack on Hillary's comments about Bernie Sanders' supporters, but he couldn't stop going on unscripted stream-of-consciousness rants literally between words on the teleprompter.

Highlights:
1) Showing up 40 minutes late, to the point where the crowd had been yelling "Turn it off! Turn it off!" re: the repetitive music playlist while they were waiting (I'm guessing one can only take so much Ted Nugent.)

2) Implication that Hillary cheated on Bill.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

“Hillary Clinton’s only loyalty is to her financial contributors and to herself,” Trump said. “I don’t even think she’s loyal to Bill, if you want to know the truth.”

The crowd gasped and many shouted: “Ohhhhh!”

Trump shrugged.

“And really, folks,” Trump continued, “really, why should she be? Right? Why should she be?”

3) Exhortations for his supporters to monitor polling places in "certain areas" on election day.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He told the crowd to get a group of friends together on Election Day, vote and then go to “certain areas” and “watch” the voters there. "I hear too many bad stories, and we can't lose an election because of you know what I'm talking about,” Trump said. “So, go and vote and then go check out areas because a lot of bad things happen, and we don't want to lose for that reason.”

4) Can't get past the first sentence of his prepared statement about the Clinton bit on Sanders' folks, without insulting Sanders himself.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He read the first sentence of the prepared statement: “A new audio tape that has surfaced — just yesterday — from another one of Hillary’s high-roller fundraisers shows her demeaning and mocking Bernie Sanders and all of his supporters.”

Rather than continuing, Trump demeaned and mocked Sanders himself, saying that he has “a much bigger movement than Bernie Sanders ever had” and that he has “much bigger crowds than Bernie Sanders ever had.” Trump accused Sanders of tarnishing his legacy by making a “deal with the devil” and supporting Clinton.

“Crazy Bernie,” Trump said at one point.

5) Mocked Clinton's bout with pneumonia and pantomimed her stumbling.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He said Clinton could not fight bad trade deals or Russian President Vladimir Putin because “she can't make it 15 feet to her car,” alluding to video that showed Clinton buckling as she unexpectedly left a 9/11 memorial service early. Her doctor later said she had pneumonia. Trump then imitated Clinton by flailing his arms and jostling side to side. He walked unsteadily away from the podium as if he were about to fall over. “Folks, we need stamina,” Trump said. “We need energy.”

6) Accused CNN of being in the tank for Clinton, then in the same breath says it doesn't matter because no one watches them.

7) Whatever the fuck this is supposed to be:

“You’re unsuspecting,” Trump said. “Right now, you say to your wife: ‘Let’s go to a movie after Trump.’ But you won’t do that because you’ll be so high and so excited that no movie is going to satisfy you. Okay? No movie. You know why? Honestly? Because they don’t make movies like they used to — is that right?”

8) Whatever the actual fuck this is:

“How many people have acid-washed or bleached a tweet?” Trump asked the crowd. “How many? That you deleted? So you deleted it but that’s not good enough. No, this is getting crazy. Our country is becoming a third-world country.”

Ok, Internet....you have your grist. Let me see those "acid-washed tweet" memes.


Really, it's just breathtaking. Whoever the teleprompter guy is for Trump's rallies deserves hazard pay.


Exhibit C: First quality (i.e. not online or robodial) post-debate polling comes in, shows notable bump for Clinton in swing states.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

3) Exhortations for his supporters to monitor polling places in "certain areas" on election day.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He told the crowd to get a group of friends together on Election Day, vote and then go to “certain areas” and “watch” the voters there. "I hear too many bad stories, and we can't lose an election because of you know what I'm talking about,” Trump said. “So, go and vote and then go check out areas because a lot of bad things happen, and we don't want to lose for that reason.”

CALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEDDDDDDDDD IIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTT

There will almost certainly be some "hey buddy, let me see your ID" by Trump supporters on election day whether he specifically courts that or not. I look forward to the chaos.

I'll be sure to have my driver's license glued onto my fist, so I can fulfill their requests.

"No officer, I didn't facepunch this man. He requested to see my ID, and I attempted to comply rapidly and vigorously. And repeatedly."

7) Whatever the fuck this is supposed to be:

“You’re unsuspecting,” Trump said. “Right now, you say to your wife: ‘Let’s go to a movie after Trump.’ But you won’t do that because you’ll be so high and so excited that no movie is going to satisfy you. Okay? No movie. You know why? Honestly? Because they don’t make movies like they used to — is that right?”

Liberals ruin movies, myth confirmed.

Whatever the actual fuck this is:

“How many people have acid-washed or bleached a tweet?” Trump asked the crowd. “How many? That you deleted? So you deleted it but that’s not good enough. No, this is getting crazy. Our country is becoming a third-world country.”

I swear upon all that is sacred I've heard the phrase "acid-washed tweet" somewhere before...

[Strife26]

I'm not nearly drunk enough for most of those quotes to seem remotely reasonable. GG Republicans.

[Rolan7]

Godsdamn those are hilarious.  This election is some dank dark humor.
Also pretty sure he already said #3, about monitoring polling places...  Or at least he was implying it, I guess he's being more direct about it now.  Actually!  Earlier he was upfront about saying there would be election tampering, now he's being all coy calling it "you-know-what" 

[RedKing]

"you-know-what" being code for "black people voting".

Actually, he's fond of using the horror axiom that nothing is as horrible as what your audience's minds can pour into a suggestive empty space. So he hints and he intimates, but he rarely actually gives specifics, so that every listener will pour the sum of their fears and their prejudices into that void.


EDIT: I had been planning on taking Election Day and the day after off anyways, now it looks like I'll be spending Election Day as a poll monitor monitor. Not sure where though -- this town is bluer than that Eiffel 65 song. We do have red rural outskirts to the county, but I doubt they'd come into town to harass a bunch of artists, retired writers and hipster artisanal foodies. And anybody trying that shit in Durham is going to get straight-up fucked up.

[mainiac]

I think the interesting thing will be whether Trump can hold back his ego and claim that his tax shenanigans were brilliant business acumen all along.  That is supposedly the sorest point of his very, very sore ego.  But as the old adage goes: if you are explaining yourself you are losing.  It will be very, very bad for Trump to try and defend himself but I think every ounce of instinct in his body will be to do so.

[RedKing]

Well that's already the take his surrogates are using. They're also saying "Wow, look at how much money he lost, and then he came back and made a fuckton MORE money! Is this guy great or what??"

BTW, I didn't realize how adept Rudy Giuliani was at deepthroating Trump's wrinkled orange microschlong. He's becoming almost as unhinged as Trump himself.

[WealthyRadish]

I agree that the best thing he could do is dismiss and ignore it. Even if directly asked about it in a debate, he certainly doesn't have any scruples about ignoring the question multiple times and going off on a tangent. Though I guess tangents technically need to be connected to the original point somewhere, so maybe "incoherent non-sequitur" would be more descriptive of Trump's particular style of debating.

It is an interesting question of whether we'll see his genuine inflated ego trump his stage personality here.