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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1390010 times)

mainiac

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3390 on: August 29, 2016, 12:52:49 pm »


That's a circular argument if I ever saw one. "Why do people argue that the war wasn't just about X? Side A won, and they said it was about X, and they won so obviously they're right."

Also, bit trickier to explain those kinds of motivations to schoolkids, vs. "South was all like 'pick that cotton or i'll beat you up' and Lincoln said 'hey stop that'"
And most people never delve past their grade school history lessons when it comes to the ACW.


But hey, what do i know, I'm a descendant of one of those filthy (non-slaveholding) Confederates.
Because it's also that Side B lost, and they themselves also said it was about X until they lost and had to retrench behind a new moral shield.  However, since you bring it up, the problem isn't people who never delve beyond grade school lessons; the problem is people who learn grade school lessons weren't complete and assume it was all automatically false without bothering to look at why the grade school lessons existed in the first place.

Which is a great lesson for more then history.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Strife26

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3391 on: August 29, 2016, 01:42:30 pm »

There's important cultural developments to consider from the Civil War. We've got Simon's classic song Going to Graceland as well as a really pleasant coffee shop in Virginia that shares a building with a museum for the Shenandoah campaign.
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GreatJustice

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3392 on: August 29, 2016, 01:43:18 pm »

I never do get why some people try so hard to make the Civil War about anything but slavery. Sure there were plenty of other regional/political reasons but did any of those really stand the test of time in the minds of Americans? No. For some crazy reason, taxation and land rights don't seem to have a lasting impact on the American consciousness like depriving people of their rights and keeping them as thralls.

Because the Civil War had far reaching effects that went well beyond the abolition of slavery, effects that are probably a lot more relevant to today's political landscape and on how the US functions.

The Confederates (or at least, the Confederate government) basically were just fighting for the preservation of slavery. They liked to talk about "States Rights" and so on, but going by how they conducted things in the lead up to the Civil War when they had Federal influence, they really only cared about those things when they weren't in power (See the Fugitive Slave Laws which were actually nullified by "States Rights" supporting Northern states like Wisconsin). Mind, the fact that the Union forces basically operated as foreign invaders in the South probably motivated more volunteers than "I'm willing to fight and die so that rich planters can own slaves!", but that's beside the point.

The real issue is more that the Union's motivations were not to prevent slavery at all, they were simply to prevent the Confederates from leaving at any cost. Lincoln himself was less interested in helping out the oppressed slaves of the South and more interested in furthering the interests of the Northern industrialists that bankrolled him. He also wasn't interested in any checks or balances on Federal power and basically treated the office of President as being more like that of an elected King with some limited restraints.

As a consequence of the Civil War, the US became less of a voluntary compact of self governing states and more of a federal country with centralized authority. The ideas of secession, states rights, etc were all tarred by the brush of slavery. A lot of the worst excesses of the Gilded Age with regards to treatment of natives, subsidization and cronyism in industry, the rise of American imperialism, etc were all only possible because of the result of the Civil War. To say it was "just about slavery" is to completely miss all the other issues that were brought up and settled at the same time as slavery.
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nenjin

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3393 on: August 29, 2016, 02:02:55 pm »

Except no one with any education says it was "just about slavery." Slavery was just the most salient part of it. It's fine to say "slavery and other issues." But some seem hellbent on saying that slavery, if it was a reason at all, is at the bottom of the list. Which is pants on the head stupid and/or self-serving.
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Strife26

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3394 on: August 29, 2016, 02:13:15 pm »

Calling the consensus "Slavery and other issues, but mostly slavery" would be more accurate.
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RedKing

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3395 on: August 29, 2016, 02:38:35 pm »

I liked this conversation better when we were talking about the modern cultural and economic gulf between the south and the rest of America instead of bickering on the inner war motivations of hundreds of dead people again.
^^ This.

Calling the consensus "Slavery and other issues, but mostly slavery" would be more accurate.
^^ Also this.


Regardless of how we got to this state of things, the fact remains that the South is mostly in the shitter (outside of some rather nice metro areas, though urban sprawl is a huge problem). And that the rest of the country's attitude appears to be either "you brought it on yourself" (partially true) and/or "good, you deserve it".

EDIT: And just as important are the attitudes within the South as to why things are like this. Which range from "them damn Yankees been keeping us down ever since the War of Northern Aggression" to "if we could just get rid of all the blacks/immigrants/Jews/etc." to structural economic problems (the academic view).

Understanding those views is key to understanding how Donald Trump got 13 million votes in the primary.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 02:42:23 pm by RedKing »
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mainiac

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3396 on: August 29, 2016, 02:39:56 pm »

Calling the consensus "Slavery and other issues, but mostly slavery" would be more accurate.

Name one of the other issues.

Otherwise the accurate desciption is "Slavery, plus some revisionist bullshit that people tacked on afterwards because they wanted to pretend it wasn't slavery"
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Strife26

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3397 on: August 29, 2016, 02:42:20 pm »

States rights, a federal government seen to be supporting northern industrial development, general American orneriness, slavery.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3398 on: August 29, 2016, 02:44:39 pm »

No reaction comes from only a single cause, though some causes are singular in their importance.
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RedKing

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3399 on: August 29, 2016, 02:48:55 pm »

"General American orneriness" is a major factor in a lot of things in American history.

You could also add anti-immigrant/anti-Catholic tensions (the Know-Nothings had a sizeable presence in the South), concerns over national economic policy in general favoring industrialism over agrarianism, and differing idea of American nationalism which still hadn't been settled since 1789 (Federalism vs. Confederalism).
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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3400 on: August 29, 2016, 02:49:51 pm »

American Orneriness is worthy of being capitalized, otherwise Trump wouldn't be a thing.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3401 on: August 29, 2016, 02:50:12 pm »

idk, just jumping in here, and going of Wikipedia, correct me if these facts are wrong: the Confederates seceded even before Lincoln was sworn in, and the big election issue was banning slavery in the Territories, which the southern states saw as a threat that slavery would be abolished federally. Since Lincoln hadn't actually enacted any other laws at this stage, what's the evidence that it was over anything except slavery?

Additional info: Out of the 7 states which seceded, they included the 6 biggest slave holder states, and they averaged 48.8% of their populations as slaves. "Slave states" is definitely the right term here. Another 8 slave-owning states rejected secession, but every one of those states had lower proportions of slaves than any of the big 6. The extent of slavery therefore 100% predicts whether or not any one slave-owning state would join the Confederates or not.

So when we say "just 6% were slaveholders, the other 94% were not". Well, ~49% of the population of those states were slaves: so whether the slave owners were 6% total or 6% of the whites-only, that means non-slave holding freemen were outnumbered by the slaves, so you could see that they might support not freeing the slaves, and it had nothing to do with directly profiting off slaves.
Confederates seceded because Lincoln was sworn in, and they had not a one contributed any electoral votes to him. And he was an abolitionist; yes, he said he wasn't going to get rid of it, but if those damn Yankees are able to elect a president without even having a majority (if I remember right he had a plurality)? And be able to enact any laws those robber barons please?

North and South both have their faults. Wage slavery isn't slavery, but it's still pretty bad, and while I'm pretty sure Lincoln had 'keep the Union together' in mind first and foremost, that doesn't mean that there wasn't anything else.

For instance, mainiac, protective tariffs, which hurt Southerners who needed to import a lot of their goods a bit more than it did Northerners who had the industry such tariffs protected. Slavery was the biggest issue because it had to become the biggest issue by it's very nature. But enmity between the two groups went much farther. And in retrospect, slavery is focused on the most because it's the thing that made the winners look best.
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nenjin

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3402 on: August 29, 2016, 02:51:57 pm »

Quote
Regardless of how we got to this state of things, the fact remains that the South is mostly in the shitter (outside of some rather nice metro areas, though urban sprawl is a huge problem). And that the rest of the country's attitude appears to be either "you brought it on yourself" (partially true) and/or "good, you deserve it".

I don't really go in for that sort of shit where the Civil War is concerned. Too long ago and the principles are all dead.

The South is by and large economically worse off than the rest of the country because the North made damn sure to trash their infrastructure as they went along. While the North was capitalizing on industrialization before and going into the war, the South was trying to play catch up. Then they got set back 30 or 40 years by Sherman's March, easily. It's what you'd do to any enemy nation in wartime, really.

Right, wrong, deserved, undeserved, it just is and it echoes through to today. I'm not saying Southerns don't have reasons to be salty or to want to make sure that they get how badly they got fucked into the record. Has little or nothing to do with deflecting from slavery though. And the current state of the South also easily has ties to the Southern mentality of NOT wanting to adapt to new industry, new sources of revenue.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 02:54:40 pm by nenjin »
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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3403 on: August 29, 2016, 03:17:09 pm »

I feel like I shouldn't encourage the derail, but it was more of the policies which included Sherman's March, but I don't think Atlanta > Savannah is anywhere near important enough in any version of any history to account for the entire rest of the southern states being in their condition now, not even the rest of Georgia really. It didn't help, but... it's Georgia, the state that clings on to Florida with a death grip because it actually looks good by comparison.
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RedKing

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #3404 on: August 29, 2016, 03:33:12 pm »

And in retrospect, slavery is focused on the most because it's the thing that made the winners look best.
I need that on a plaque somewhere.


@nenjin: Don't agree about the North being responsible for the lack of infrastructure, or at least not in the sense of war damage. The South lacked major infrastructure outside the coastal regions even before the war. That's one of the reasons it was so easy to divide and conquer it -- blockade the Mississippi, the Gulf Coast and the Mid-Atlantic Coast and you basically shut it down. Sherman's March and other efforts didn't help, but it's not like we had gleaming roads and the finest of bridges prior to the war. Most of the infrastructure damage was that done to farmsteads and light industry like grain mills. Which contributed to urbanization (see below).

There are a lot of reasons the South has long lagged behind in infrastructure development. One of the first being that a lot of rail infrastructure was built to service industry. The North had more industry, hence more infrastructure development. Hell, one of the major issues Democrats and Whigs ran on in the South was using Federal money to build public rails and roads.

The second is population density. The Northeast has always had a relatively high population density. The South has not. Which continues to be a problem hindering industrial development. Back in the day, you could build factories and mills in the South if you provided housing, because people would leave subsistence farming (especially if your farm was burnt to the ground and your livestock slaughtered) if offered a place to dwell. But there's few subsistence farmers left, and extremely few workplaces that are going to give a house/apartment to unskilled workers. And lower population density means less bang for your buck whether it's building factories, railways, ports, etc. Also means less chance of finding skilled workers for niche industries. And it also makes government assistance more costly and inefficient because of distance.

Even when you do have concentrated populations, the relative cheapness of land and the lack of large-scale established agriculture to hem in cities has led to decades of urban sprawl, which creates an extra economic burden. Poor people in New York can ride the bus/subway for a couple bucks a day. A poor person here who say, lives in Durham and works in Raleigh, is going to need a car because the mass transit options around here are laughable, and they're going to burn more than a couple bucks in gas each day, on top of the cost of owning, financing and maintaining a car.

Urban sprawl also eats up a greater proportion of public funds for maintenance. The bigger you make your 'burbs, and the further out they go, you wind up needing almost exponentially more roads to connect them and service the traffic load.


But urban sprawl is really only an issue in the more urbanized southern states (Georgia, Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, Texas). You get sort of an opposite extreme elsewhere. When I visited Mississippi for work a couple years ago, I drove from Jackson to Vicksburg, about a 50 mile trip. I forgot to hit an ATM in Jackson, so I thought "No biggie, I'll just get off at the next exit and find a bank". There were TWO exits in that 50 miles. And both of them just kinda disappeared into the woods, and I'm pretty sure I heard "Dueling Banjos".

You get states like Mississippi where there are maybe only one or two "cities" and the rest of the population is sprinked lightly around the rest of the state, too thin to justify major infrastructure investment, but not so empty that you can just leave large chunks of it as unserviced wilderness, as in the Rocky Mountain states or Alaska. So you wind up with a lot of people living in small communities with the bare minimum of infrastructure and not a lot of hope of seeing an improvement. And then the whole poverty->weak tax revenue->lack of infrastructure->poverty cycle takes hold.



Honestly, it's not dissimilar to the challenges faced by development NGOs in Africa.
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