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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1411945 times)

Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17910 on: January 20, 2017, 08:37:50 pm »

We may also see the Republicans use their majority to change the rules regarding the filibuster, which is a pretty good outcome in my book. People will yell at them for pulling the ladder up behind themselves, but if the Democrats did it instead the accusation'd stick just as hard.
I'd be pretty impressively surprised if either of them did, tbh, especially if it involved making the things weaker. Wouldn't be pulling up the ladder behind 'em, it'd be shooting themselves in the foot in another 4-8 years, possibly less.

... mind you, it happening still wouldn't make me lose sleep or anything out of shock. If we've learned anything over the last handful of years it's that congress has the collective foresight of a headless chicken.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17911 on: January 20, 2017, 08:41:09 pm »

You mean changing it so that they need 60 votes in the Senate for confirming nominations and other stuff instead of a simple majority? Pfft, fat chance of that happening.

They've also threatened to use the 'nuclear option' for the SCOTUS nominee. Honestly, the 60 vote threshold really shouldn't be removeable because, as much as the Republicans abused it, it's an important check and balance between the two parties.

Filibustering is the practice wherein someone just keeps talking to delay the vote on a topic.  Not sure what you are referring to.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17912 on: January 20, 2017, 08:43:23 pm »

I wasn't quite sure what Baffler meant there either actually.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17913 on: January 20, 2017, 08:45:56 pm »

There's mechanics in place to override filibusters, which is probably what smj was talking about. I've completely forgotten what they are, tbh, but I do remember congressfolks being pretty leery about anything that made it harder for the minority to use the things.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17914 on: January 20, 2017, 08:51:08 pm »

There's mechanics in place to override filibusters, which is probably what smj was talking about. I've completely forgotten what they are, tbh, but I do remember congressfolks being pretty leery about anything that made it harder for the minority to use the things.

Hence the so called 'nuclear option'.
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misko27

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17915 on: January 20, 2017, 09:13:15 pm »

F

sounds like BFEL is shitposting in Bay13 now. o7
Well damn. Politics strike another. I warned him before to watch himself a bit, but it seems like he did the opposite of that. He never was particularly constructive, and he straight up refused to respond to most things people said to him. Still, it's very unfortunate to see the politics thread claim another. Methinks that it may need stricter attention payed to it by it's oh so watchful german overlord if it is to survive these next years.
There's mechanics in place to override filibusters, which is probably what smj was talking about. I've completely forgotten what they are, tbh, but I do remember congressfolks being pretty leery about anything that made it harder for the minority to use the things.
It's reasonable to say it's one of the few things that "All of congress agrees on" that they still actually all agree on. They used to be fairly united against the executive branch encroaching on their territory, but it seems like it's not to be.
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Sprin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17916 on: January 20, 2017, 09:19:46 pm »

F
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Helgoland

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17917 on: January 20, 2017, 09:26:15 pm »

Methinks that it may need stricter attention payed to it by it's oh so watchful german overlord if it is to survive these next years.
Sorry, got some shit going on right now - will hopefully be around more frequently soon. Until then, try to keep your shit together, folks. You don't want this thread to be Pearl Harbor'd, do you?
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17918 on: January 20, 2017, 09:29:33 pm »

Press F to pay respects to the fallen

F

Interestingly, the now last post of BFEL only has a single word in it.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17919 on: January 20, 2017, 09:35:23 pm »

Press F to pay respects to the fallen

F

F
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Helgoland

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17920 on: January 20, 2017, 09:41:08 pm »

Okay, while I'm still here: Could we not do that? It's essentially spam, and we know that ban happened for a good reason. There's no need to glorify it, or contextualize it as something inevitable in a discussion like this one.

That shit happens because people fuck up, and it's a good thing we have Toady moderating like he does. Do you want this place to become like the rest of the internet? No? Then do your share.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17921 on: January 20, 2017, 09:41:30 pm »

It's alright. When the rotten beams of AmeriPol Thread are finally claimed by the march of entropy and this desolate harbor slips inexorably beneath the seas, DPRK Thread's warm shores will welcome you again, and give you life anew.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17922 on: January 20, 2017, 10:19:52 pm »

Anyways, in somewhat lighter news, The Guardian has this slightly satirical (mainly the 'meters of wall built' counter is what's satirical) page set up for tracking the President for the first 100 days, one day at a time: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/jan/20/donald-trump-first-100-days-president-daily-updates
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Sprin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17923 on: January 20, 2017, 10:44:21 pm »

Anyways, in somewhat lighter news, The Guardian has this slightly satirical (mainly the 'meters of wall built' counter is what's satirical) page set up for tracking the President for the first 100 days, one day at a time: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/jan/20/donald-trump-first-100-days-president-daily-updates

Oh this is gana be awesome
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Dostoevsky

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #17924 on: January 20, 2017, 11:05:46 pm »

You mean changing it so that they need 60 votes in the Senate for confirming nominations and other stuff instead of a simple majority? Pfft, fat chance of that happening.

They've also threatened to use the 'nuclear option' for the SCOTUS nominee. Honestly, the 60 vote threshold really shouldn't be removeable because, as much as the Republicans abused it, it's an important check and balance between the two parties.

Filibustering is the practice wherein someone just keeps talking to delay the vote on a topic.  Not sure what you are referring to.

Been a bit since I've had the chance to do a miniature guest lecture.

So, the "filibuster" and the "nuclear option."

In the Senate, almost every action is a) passed on a simple majority vote, but b) technically subject to unlimited debate. There is only one way to force an end to debate: filing cloture. This, however, requires the support of 3/5 of those duly sworn into the Senate (i.e. 60 votes). This is also not an original part of the Senate, but merely a compromise to the rules struck many decades ago as a sort of compromise to end a greater procedural war.

Here's an example of the modern filibuster in action. Let's say the Senate started consideration of a bill making interstate commerce in "Make America Great Again" hats a criminal felony offense. Sen. Slee really dislikes the bill, but only has 40 other senators on his side. If this came up for a final passage vote, he'd lose (unless he kidnaps or otherwise prevents 20 of the senators supporting the bill from voting, but that's another story). Instead, he and the other 40 senators will vote against cloture, preventing debate time from ending and thus preventing a vote on final passage. He doesn't have to actually debate or speechify at all.

He could speechify if he wants, and doing so could (assuming he never needs to step off the floor for any reason for the rest of eternity) prevent a cloture vote altogether. Once cloture has been filed, however, there are strict limits on how long a given senator gets to debate on an issue, and the chance for an actual filibuster is over.

The "nuclear option," meanwhile, allows a the Senate to effectively reinterpret the rules of the Senate as they see fit on a majority vote. When Sen. Reid nuked the filibuster of most nominees, the mechanics worked out more or less as following: the Senate holds a cloture vote; the cloture vote fails; Reid insists to the presiding officer that cloture is actually only a majority vote and not 60; the presiding officer reads the plain text of the Standing Rules of the Senate and rules against him; Reid challenges his ruling - which, if he uses the loophole right, is itself not subject to debate, does not require a cloture vote, and thus passes on a majority vote. Once the ruling is successfully challenged, new precedent is set. They still go through the steps and timing requirements of cloture, but all the cloture votes themselves only require a majority.

In other words, this loophole allows the majority of the Senate to insist that when the rules say '60' they actually mean 'majority'. Or anything else rules-related, for that matter. The only reason things function like this is because precedent is supposed to not be bonkers, so every time someone uses the nuclear option the Senate's culture and history comes a little closer to tearing apart at the seams.

(The House, meanwhile, regularly stretches, waives, and messes with its own rules on a majority vote or even just on a majority vote of a single committee. The House is a procedural hellscape, in my honest opinion, and I'd rather the Senate not go down that road. Yes, I think Sen. Reid made a horrible mistake actually using a procedural nuke. And yes, I think the filibuster is better than the alternative.)

McConnell will likely nuke the filibuster for Supreme Court nominees, and he might even nuke the filibuster for things like amendments to standalone legislation or the motion to proceed, but I think/hope he won't nuke the filibuster for standalone legislation. He has reasons to not want to, and I think he's a strategic fellow.
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