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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1411453 times)

Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17370 on: January 14, 2017, 04:46:05 pm »

Quote
As for you question, i honestly don't know. on one hand, yeah, these people don't know how ISIS behave, on the other hand, these people, as poor as they might be, might actually indirectly fund ISIS through giving zakat to a pro-ISIS mosque, maybe even while knowing the mosque supports ISIS. ignorance can very rarely justify criminality.

What Metalslimehunt said. Plus, "criminality" doesn't even make sense in this context. If a peasant gave some money to a mosque in Nigeria to provide aid money to "defenders of the holy land" in a different nation, what exact law would they have broken? And if no law was broken, an act cannot be "criminal". It can be wrong or misguided, but criminality can only exist in the context of a legal framework preventing your action.

A similar example was USA's Contra affair. Because they were blocked from funding the Contras by congress, conservatives started a charity to fund the contras. The contras ran around murdering catholic nuns and kids and stuff. So you can say that the "aid money" Americans gave the Contras had about the same effect as giving aid to ISIS would. Giving money to rebels to overthrow a foreign government was considered perfectly legal in the USA, and just because the money was used for criminal acts doesn't mean the donors were "criminal".

This is pretty much the same situation as it would be for e.g. an illiterate peasant in Nigeria who only knows that ISIS are Muslims fighting oppression, and gives some of his money to the mosque to provide "aid" to the freedom fighters. In that scenario, the Nigerian guys motives, actions, knowledge and outcome are virtually identical to those of Americans in the 1980s who sent money to the Contras. And if the Americans weren't criminals for doing so, how can we argue that someone not even subject to US law could be held criminally culpable for doing the exact same thing for the exact same reasons?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 05:09:01 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17371 on: January 14, 2017, 05:12:14 pm »

Quote
As for you question, i honestly don't know. on one hand, yeah, these people don't know how ISIS behave, on the other hand, these people, as poor as they might be, might actually indirectly fund ISIS through giving zakat to a pro-ISIS mosque, maybe even while knowing the mosque supports ISIS. ignorance can very rarely justify criminality.

What Metalslimehunt said. Plus, "criminality" doesn't even make sense in this context. If a peasant gave some money to a mosque in Nigeria to provide aid money to "defenders of the holy land" in a different nation, what exact law would they have broken? And if no law was broken, an act cannot be "criminal". It can be wrong or misguided, but criminality can only exist in the context of a legal framework preventing your action.

A similar example was USA's Contra affair. Because they were blocked from funding the Contras by congress, conservatives started a charity to fund the contras. The contras ran around beheading catholic nuns and little kids and stuff. So you can say that the "aid money" from America had about the same effect as giving aid to ISIS would. But the Americans who gave aid are not criminals, just because the money ended up being used to fund horrendous crimes. To them, they were merely providing aid to freedom fighters against the government of another country, and act that's perfectly legal in the USA.

You mean the Iran-Contra affair? You seem to be misreading it. It wasn't a bunch of random conservative citizens giving money to Nicaragua, the conservatives were Reagan and senior admin officials and what they were doing is something even shadier than what you seem to be interpreting it as. What they did was that they sold weapons to Iran (which was under an arms embargo) in an attempt (which they somehow managed to include Israel) to get some hostages released and also diverted some of those funds to the Contra rebels.

Point is that the Iran-Contra affair wasn't about citizens doing it, it was about the President and his adminstration doing it despite Congress blocking Government officials from doing that.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 05:17:14 pm by smjjames »
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17372 on: January 14, 2017, 05:16:20 pm »

I know about that, I'm talking about something separate that happened around the same time. They started donation drives to get more funding for the Contra rebels. This also helped with their media messaging about the whole Contra thing.

These are authentic articles from the era:

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-05-08/news/mn-6368_1_private-funding
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Surge in Private Donations to Assist Contras Reported

WASHINGTON — In a conservative backlash against Congress' rejection of U.S. aid for Nicaraguan rebels, private campaigns to fund the contras appear to be gaining momentum--with tacit encouragement from the Reagan Administration. Organizations raising money for the rebels against Nicaragua's leftist regime say that contributions have jumped noticeably since the Democratic-controlled House turned down President Reagan's request for $14 million in aid two weeks ago. And a newspaper affiliated with the Unification Church of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon announced Tuesday that it has formed a new group, led by former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon and former U.N. Ambassador Jeane J. Kirkpatrick, to raise $14 million to undo what Simon called "Congress' cowardly act."

www.nytimes.com/1988/02/12/world/white-house-bans-officials-helping-contra-donations.html
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WASHINGTON, Feb. 11— The White House announced today that it had forbidden Reagan Administration officials to ''provide assistance or encouragement of any kind to private individuals or third parties raising funds'' for the Nicaraguan rebels.

The prohibition, a direct result of the Iran-contra affair, is intended to prevent possible impropriety as the White House continues to press Congress for renewed aid to the contras.

In a letter dated Wednesday and signed by the White House chief of staff, Howard H. Baker Jr., and the President's national security adviser, Lieut. Gen. Colin L. Powell, the White House also ordered Government officials not to discuss private aid to the contras ''during briefings or meetings in which Administration officials participate'' and to discourage individuals from doing so. Private Groups Can Raise Funds

But the letter did not discourage private groups from soliciting funds for the contras.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 05:21:39 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17373 on: January 14, 2017, 05:19:39 pm »

I know about that, I'm talking about something separate that happened around the same time. They started donation drives to get more funding for the Contra rebels.

Who? The government or random people? Also, not sure why you're calling it the Contra affair because there's only one wikipedia entry for 'Contra affair', and that's the Iran-Contra affair.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17374 on: January 14, 2017, 05:23:15 pm »

I know about that, I'm talking about something separate that happened around the same time. They started donation drives to get more funding for the Contra rebels.

Who? The government or random people? Also, not sure why you're calling it the Contra affair because there's only one wikipedia entry for 'Contra affair', and that's the Iran-Contra affair.
Look, you can easily get the same information I got by merely googling it. It's there, not hard to find, see the links I added.

A stack of charities were set up by Republicans with tacit support from the Reagan Administration to provide aid money for the Contras. There was enough of this going on that the White House had to issue a ban on direct involvement in the charities for all White House staff after the Iran-Contra Affair all came out.

Also, who set this up is irrelevant to the main point I was making. Americans unknowingly donated money to a straight-up fascist terrorist organization trying to overthrow a democratically elected government (the Sandinistas created the first ever election system in the country and it's endured. The Contras were the remnants of the fascist-era secret police). The point being that what the money was being used for doesn't make the donor a better or worse person. You can only do the right thing as far as the information you're provided.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 05:41:43 pm by Reelya »
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17375 on: January 14, 2017, 05:35:51 pm »

I looks to me like Sergarr has drunk the Stalin-era koolaid
Hey, quite a few of self-proclaimed liberals I know would've agreed with that idea I've posted earlier.

I mean, the whole "it's propaganda even if its factually true because its only a *selective release* of information by a malicious actor, do not listen to it" thing that the Democrats - hell, the government of USA itself! - have got going on is already a fine example of "we know better what you should know about the world" and open censorship. And, whatever the government of USA does, is obviously objectively a good thing, right? It's the best government of the best state in the world, after all.

So quit with your baseless accusation of Stalinism - it's pure liberty and freedom that I'm spreading around! But it's not the false liberty and freedom of allowing foreign and domestic media traitors to run around unchecked - it's a true freedom and liberty of a society free from any lies and propaganda other than our own!
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17376 on: January 14, 2017, 05:36:25 pm »

I tried to google 'contra donation drive', heh.

Anyways, I get your point. The difference here, other than that justification at the time was that they were fighting communists, despite acting like terrorists and I bet they'd be labelled as such today, is legal. The Contras were never labelled a terrorist group, which would have made such funding illegal.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17377 on: January 14, 2017, 05:53:11 pm »

Heh, well the thing was I knew to look for this because back in the day, one of my friends had an actual poster that was pitching for donations for the Contras. It was the kind of thing that you felt must be a parody, but apparently wasn't.

Also, note the video game "Contra" which probably seemed reasonable at the time but would be akin to making a game called "ISIS Holy Warrior" today.

EDIT ~~~ Wow, turns out the poster my friend had was really the real deal. You can't make this shit up:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1985/03/22/republicans-raising-contra-funds-complain-of-white-house-muzzling/ad6577d7-06a8-4d7e-babc-6165e5ef6659/
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The poster, called Save the Contras, shows a man called "Charley" wearing a crucifix and ammunition belts and carrying a gun. The headline reads, "Only 53 cents a day will support a Nicaraguan freedom fighter." It asks for money for "regular meals, medical attention, and the chance to vote in a free and open election. That's all we want." The poster has a cutout coupon for sending donations to the College Republicans at Republican National Committee headquarters
...
The poster had provoked an angry reaction from Save the Children, a private nonprofit agency that assists families in underdeveloped countries. The poster is similar to Save the Children magazine ads.

Righto, the College Republicans ripped off "Save The Children" artwork to create an advert for funding homicidal mass-murderers :/
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 06:26:16 pm by Reelya »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17378 on: January 14, 2017, 05:56:44 pm »

In fairness, contra is still a word far predating the Nicuraguan group, and you fight aliens in Contra.
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17379 on: January 14, 2017, 06:01:11 pm »

Also, note the video game "Contra" which probably seemed reasonable at the time but would be akin to making a game called "ISIS Holy Warrior" today.

Tempting idea for a romhack
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17381 on: January 14, 2017, 07:05:44 pm »

I looks to me like Sergarr has drunk the Stalin-era koolaid
Hey, quite a few of self-proclaimed liberals I know would've agreed with that idea I've posted earlier.

I mean, the whole "it's propaganda even if its factually true because its only a *selective release* of information by a malicious actor, do not listen to it" thing that the Democrats - hell, the government of USA itself! - have got going on is already a fine example of "we know better what you should know about the world" and open censorship. And, whatever the government of USA does, is obviously objectively a good thing, right? It's the best government of the best state in the world, after all.

So quit with your baseless accusation of Stalinism - it's pure liberty and freedom that I'm spreading around! But it's not the false liberty and freedom of allowing foreign and domestic media traitors to run around unchecked - it's a true freedom and liberty of a society free from any lies and propaganda other than our own!

I should clarify here I think--

Total transparency most certainly *IS* bad for an intelligence network. For starters, such a network needs "eyes and ears"-- spies for lack of a better term. These are people who do very dangerous work, because the penalty for being one is often capital punishment. As such, total transparency would out them any time some idiot asked. "Mr Intelligence Guy-- How many spies do you have in the Russian government right now?" etc.

Conversely, "total secrecy" is also bad, because it leads to the bullshit we have right now, where the details of some "embarrassing" thing are "totally a state secret, so you cannot know, citizen! The number of times the Secretary of State ordered underage prostitutes while overseas is a matter of national security!" (Etc.)   

These two truths point to a "partial transparency, where it is sensible + partial secrecy, where required" type arrangement. EG, "We have learned that the government of $SomeGovt plans to $NefariousPlan from our overseas contacts" strikes such a balance. It only outs that we do indeed have overseas contacts, and honestly reports what we have learned-- which strikes the needed balance between the need to secure and retain information gathering aparatus, and the need to primarily serve the public interest with accurate information.  (Note, I am not so foolish as to discount the possibility  of counter-intelligence, with the purposeful feeding of false information to known informants. Quite the contrary. All information gathered needs to be considered suspect, and digested before being given the "probably factual" stamp of approval.) Deciding to attempt counter-intel via reporting false intel to the news media, while certainly effective in confusing and redirecting opposition intelligence networks, is a twisted perversion of serving the public interest-- and is rife with the potential for the local government to use it to directly control its citizenry through outright misinformation and lies. As such, it needs to be forbidden.  The potential for flagrant abuse that domestic psyops and propaganda against one's own citizenry (for flagrant self-benefit of the regime, at the expense of its citizenry) was one of the prominent features of Stalinist era Russia. The scary bearded guy has many jovial anecdotes and direct quotations to that effect.

Spoiler: A few trite examples (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 07:32:36 pm by wierd »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17382 on: January 14, 2017, 07:12:30 pm »

lol https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/business/media/cspan-russia-today.html

I saw that earlier, it just seems really wierd in the context of the whole Russia stuff that's been going on. They do say that they think there was some router issue, but I don't know if anybody has conclusively said that it is a router issue and not that someone intentionally messed with it or anything.
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BFEL

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17383 on: January 14, 2017, 07:53:52 pm »

lol https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/business/media/cspan-russia-today.html

I saw that earlier, it just seems really wierd in the context of the whole Russia stuff that's been going on. They do say that they think there was some router issue, but I don't know if anybody has conclusively said that it is a router issue and not that someone intentionally messed with it or anything.

Wouldn't surprise me if this was done on purpose by dems to make the "Russian hacking" story seem more likely.
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17384 on: January 14, 2017, 07:56:48 pm »

lol https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/business/media/cspan-russia-today.html

I saw that earlier, it just seems really wierd in the context of the whole Russia stuff that's been going on. They do say that they think there was some router issue, but I don't know if anybody has conclusively said that it is a router issue and not that someone intentionally messed with it or anything.
Quite obviously, it's a preparation for the coup - in case Trump is about to get impeached, the Russians will take over all TV channels and stream bullshit while the Trump's PMC shoots the fuck out of the anti-Trump Senators under the media suppression cover, possibly also calling in the Russian army elements conveniently placed in merchant ships just a few hours away from USA coast to assist him.

Not that they're all that much different from each other - I've heard, ahem, "rumours", that Trump's PMC is composed of ex-FSB/Russian army officers.
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