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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1418438 times)

martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16980 on: January 08, 2017, 05:07:14 pm »

Have read replies and love them but too busy to reply now

As penance I offer sexual attraction to politics
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I dunno man. I think the only way politics would get me hard is when a law is passed that offers free Viagra for everyone.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16981 on: January 08, 2017, 05:38:50 pm »

Okay.

Since you're saying you're not in favor of either popular vote or electoral college system, what system do you believe would work more effectively, affording equal and fair representation to all? (I like proportional representation+ranked voting for this purpose, myself, I think, since that helps with partisanship and the far-[side] politicians that FPTP encourages)

Additionally, is there a way to do this without making it so that some individuals have a directly larger impact in terms of their vote having more weight in the counting methods? Because I know if I didn't specify that you'd talk about elites influencing and media and so on and so forth. But I still believe in truth. Arms race between truth and deceit, constantly going on, basis of human psychology, evolution, and communication. Signalling games in order to play status games, all the way back. It's why we have science and logic; best way to determine whether someone is signalling accurately is to find out what's actually true, or makes sense. Obviously isn't perfect, since we're also built to lie to each other which means lying to ourselves in order to avoid giving off the cues that we've learned to pick up on to tell when someone is lying.

As for other folks: Electoral college does give more weight to rural votes, by happenstance rather than intent. Yes, yes, it focuses on swing states, but it's the stage before that where it gives more weight. Obviously it affects low-pop states more than anything, but nonetheless, most of those are rural. Thus affecting which states are swing states. Hell, I bet there's been analyses of which states would be swing states if it was purely by population. Somewhere, at least.  :-\

Finally, re: urban disenfranchisement. There's been a few sources of anecdata in this thread, I remember. Not precisely scholarly, but then people seem to distrust academia research when it comes to politics. Which isn't entirely unwarranted, mind you, I just don't know what can really be done about it, other than look for signs that it's authors have motivated reasoning/testing strategies that shine through (I've said it before, I'll say it again: science is hard). I was hoping to get some info from official sites, but it seems none of those pdfs work for me. :/ If they work for you, please let me know what they say. >_>

EDIT: Haven't fully read through this, and it's from 14 years ago, so I'm not certain how applicable/unbiased it is, but it's probably worth a look.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 05:40:35 pm by Rolepgeek »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16982 on: January 08, 2017, 05:44:08 pm »

Not sure who you're asking specifically RPgeek?

Took a shot at it with google with "analysis which states would be swing states if it was purely by population without the electoral college" (minus the quotes) and found this: http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=poli_honors It's an emperical analysis of the electoral college. It's from 2007, and at first glance it seems really technical and I only did a fast scan of it, however, in the conclusion, it mentions that interstate compact, so, it might give some clues.

edit: Maybe not, the article linked never seems to look at the population. Woefully out of date anyway because Colorado went Dem in 2008 and doesn't have NC as a competitive. Also, of the ones they list as competitive that are in the top 10 by population are Florida, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 06:26:53 pm by smjjames »
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16983 on: January 08, 2017, 07:47:38 pm »

Hell, I bet there's been analyses of which states would be swing states if it was purely by population. Somewhere, at least.  :-\

You're mixing up your issues here. If the vote was purely propotional to population the same states would be swing states. "Swing states" is because of winner-takes-all voting, where any state with a knife-edge balance of red vs blue becomes critical. That has nothing to do with how many EC votes each state gets.

Gentlefish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16984 on: January 08, 2017, 11:24:21 pm »

-snop-

As for different systems, Maine initiated a new type of voting system.

Beats the hell out of the winner-takes-all we have here.

Still techinically WTA, but if a candidate doesn't have >50% of 1st choice votes, the least popular candidate gets eliminated until someone emerges victorious.

uber pye

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16985 on: January 08, 2017, 11:28:16 pm »

-snop-

As for different systems, Maine initiated a new type of voting system.

Beats the hell out of the winner-takes-all we have here.

Still techinically WTA, but if a candidate doesn't have >50% of 1st choice votes, the least popular candidate gets eliminated until someone emerges victorious.

yay the first blow against FPTP!
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16986 on: January 08, 2017, 11:52:43 pm »

-snop-

As for different systems, Maine initiated a new type of voting system.

Beats the hell out of the winner-takes-all we have here.

Still techinically WTA, but if a candidate doesn't have >50% of 1st choice votes, the least popular candidate gets eliminated until someone emerges victorious.

yay the first blow against FPTP!

Only 49 more states to go!

California does have this top-two system (Louisiana has something similar) where the top two vote getters in the primary, regardless of party, fight it out in the general, but the voting system is still the same as everybody else, except Maine, who are forging ahead with the experiment*.

*It's an experiment for us as a nation, that is.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16987 on: January 08, 2017, 11:53:30 pm »

It mostly only eliminates the spoiler effect, the issues with single-member districts are still there. But it is still superior to the current system, and it'll hopefully set a precedent for states reforming how their congressmen are elected (since there's no way in hell it's happening at the federal level).
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16988 on: January 09, 2017, 12:00:14 am »

Theres no way it'll happen at the federal level with just one state doing it, but if one system gains enough momentum and popularity, then it's certainly likely to happen at the federal level.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16989 on: January 09, 2017, 12:06:40 am »

Quote
How Do I Mark The Ranked-Choice Voting Ballot?

The Ranked-Choice ballot card is designed in a side-by-side column format and lists the names of all of the candidates in three repeating columns. This format allows a voter to select a first-choice candidate in the first column, a second-choice candidate in the second column, and a third-choice candidate in the third column. Voters will connect the head and tail of the arrow next to the name of the candidate they choose.

What's with you Americans and making shit more complex than it needs to be?

In Australia, we just have one list of candidates and you write numbers from 1-N in each box next to their names. Counting up to about 6 shouldn't be an issue for people capable of reading the ballot instructions.

In the American system, it replicates all information 3 times needlessly, and you have to draw arrows connecting choices #1 to #2 to #3. Who thinks shit like that up? The system sounds far more cumbersome and error-prone, as well as imposing an artificial 3-choice limit which could be eploitable (by spamming e.g. a dozen choices on the left to split the vote in hopes that Dems will lose a few).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 12:15:11 am by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16990 on: January 09, 2017, 12:10:48 am »

The videos on there don't seem to work :/

Some pictures of it would at least be helpful.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16991 on: January 09, 2017, 12:15:20 am »

I was going to say that this prevents ambiguity with reading marked numbers, but what the hell is this "drawing arrows from head to tail" crap? Playing connect the dots between duplicate columns, that's the best way they could think of to do this?

I can already imagine that every article ever written about this will call the system "confusing", and that will be what people associate with it forever.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16992 on: January 09, 2017, 12:18:28 am »

What would be better if you want to avoid ambiguous numbers is a grid, e.g. list each candidate once, then have 3 columns of boxes "#1 #2 #3", and you cross/tick one box per column. Then you can machine read the thing without needing to do character recognition.

Then you can instruct the voters to only fill out the first column for a "traditional" vote, but they can fill out a second and third choice columns if they wish. Much simpler and people will appreciate that they don't have to do anything differently. But almost all people will fill out 2nd and 3rd choices.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 12:23:13 am by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16993 on: January 09, 2017, 12:24:38 am »

Is anybody able to get the videos to work? I tried downloading one of the vids, but for some crazy reason, windows media player finds the format to be unsupported.

Anyhow, in other stuff, the Dems are circulating a bill in both chambers of Congress that would end Trumps conflict of interest exemptions. Fat chance that it'll pass in the Republican held Congress though.

Hopefully they hold onto it if it doesn't pass because who knows whether there will be some scandal that changes the minds of Republicans or if the Dems take both chambers in 2018.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 12:48:45 am by smjjames »
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #16994 on: January 09, 2017, 01:17:11 am »

Oddly enough... I actually think it is in the Republican's best interest to pass this bill.

Their priority right now is corralling and controlling Trump... and this bill at LEAST stops Trump from doing some of the dumber stuff.

While at the same time... it probably wouldn't impeach Trump.
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