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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1413615 times)

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16245 on: December 27, 2016, 04:48:40 pm »

Since the internet we communicate through is mostly composed of private property, how is that different from state censorship, beyond the wide disparity of the censorship standards?

Not much I guess. Other than that it's not a state actor doing it.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16246 on: December 27, 2016, 04:51:46 pm »

To use an analogy, the difference is "If you visit me and start going on anti-religious rants, I will kick you out of my house" vs "I own the roads, and I will block you from using them to visit any pro-atheist house".

More specifically, the only arbiter of what is allowed on this forum is Toady. He can allow or not allow anything he wants, because this is his forum. Likewise, Stormfront or the KKK website can say anything THEY want, because it is THEIR forum. If Google (which is very much the main gateway to the internet these days) were to start blocking the latter two from search results, that would be a third party deciding to force their censorship policies on somebody's private property.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16247 on: December 27, 2016, 04:56:44 pm »

While I am against censorship of any opinion, I am much less opposed to eliminating content that has the sole purpose of deliberatly spreading lies and bullshit, and possibly wars.
Ideally, this would not be nescessary, with an informed and educated userbase. But with the state of general education having declined to a level that produces whole generations that have not learned the very basics of critical thought, it could very well be the only way to stop misinformation becoming the new truth on a massive scale. I agree though, it's a slippery slope.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Biased news and corrupt news has come out for decades by the same media outlets now attacking others for fake news, completely ignorant of how they are the ones to blame for everyone's disillusionment with MSM. They are the ones who reported not the truth, but what made their causes look good, ignoring all else. I'm particularly disturbed for example on how this power is always used to attack political opponents, one need only look at the Netherlands or Germany where opposition to Merkel's open border policy was deemed extremist and any news raising issues caused by it were branded as fake - even russian lies. It always comes down to what looks politically good and what fits the agenda of the ruling powers who have all the money, connections and lawmaking powers. I particularly like the Germany case because it highlights something important; the MSM and the police attempted to cover up the mass sexual attacks, and the lid was broken not by a respectable established outlet - but by independent right wing bloggers. When politicians, editors and police all concluded that these bloggers were all conspiracy theorists or russian shills, they autistically spread this news until foreign journalists began investigating and low and behold, found it was all true and all the authorities - the guardians and arbiters of truth, were lying.
Such a system will not suppress the misrepresentations, lies or mistakes made by the MSM, it will simply be used to suppress embarrassing truths spread by the likes of guerilla left wing news, right wing autists, conspiracy theorists, tabloids and such, and no one will care because none of these people are respectable - thus not authoritative, thus the truth is lost. Consider that were it not for the email leaks Clinton would have had a much stronger chance of winning - there is no way in hell with the power to suppress such information so effectively, it would not be used to cover up that which needs to be seen.

LoSboccacc

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16248 on: December 27, 2016, 05:02:45 pm »

they autistically spread this news until foreign journalists began investigating and low and behold, found it was all true and all the authorities - the guardians and arbiters of truth, were lying.

that's gonna work out so bad overall. all the covering up from mainstream journalist with an agenda pushed all the people away and into the open arms of the craziest cospiracy theorists. this helped opening the eyes on some issues at first, but now it has became a wild free for all between the lunatics and the crazy.
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BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16249 on: December 27, 2016, 05:03:18 pm »

To use an analogy, the difference is "If you visit me and start going on anti-religious rants, I will kick you out of my house" vs "I own the roads, and I will block you from using them to visit any pro-atheist house".

More specifically, the only arbiter of what is allowed on this forum is Toady. He can allow or not allow anything he wants, because this is his forum. Likewise, Stormfront or the KKK website can say anything THEY want, because it is THEIR forum. If Google (which is very much the main gateway to the internet these days) were to start blocking the latter two from search results, that would be a third party deciding to force their censorship policies on somebody's private property.

The right to expel someone from a property for a spoken offense is enforced by the state, which is effectively achieving censorship through a different method.
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Phmcw

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16250 on: December 27, 2016, 05:16:47 pm »

Depend on the scale of the protperty.

Toady moderating the forum won't ever be a problem for the state of free speech in society. Anything facebook does or doesn't do will have repercussions on society in general.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16251 on: December 27, 2016, 05:18:06 pm »

they autistically spread this news until foreign journalists began investigating and low and behold, found it was all true and all the authorities - the guardians and arbiters of truth, were lying.

that's gonna work out so bad overall. all the covering up from mainstream journalist with an agenda pushed all the people away and into the open arms of the craziest cospiracy theorists. this helped opening the eyes on some issues at first, but now it has became a wild free for all between the lunatics and the crazy.

It's probably different to a small extent in every country. Here, the conservative right wing media kept bashing the MSM in general (and in the end undermining their own credibility) for years, which helped contribute to the whole distrust of the media.

The problem now isn't so much as finding racist stuff than fake news triggering something bad. Like what could have happened with Pakistan. Now world leaders have to double check things for sure, or triple check. Trump seems like exactly the type to hair trigger react to something that is fake news without checking it.

Fake news (or rather inflammatory news based on vague info) has started wars before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish%E2%80%93American_War#USS_Maine  http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/fake-news-history-long-violent-214535
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16252 on: December 27, 2016, 05:22:56 pm »

they autistically spread this news until foreign journalists began investigating and low and behold, found it was all true and all the authorities - the guardians and arbiters of truth, were lying.

that's gonna work out so bad overall. all the covering up from mainstream journalist with an agenda pushed all the people away and into the open arms of the craziest cospiracy theorists. this helped opening the eyes on some issues at first, but now it has became a wild free for all between the lunatics and the crazy.

It's probably different to a small extent in every country. Here, the conservative right wing media kept bashing the MSM in general (and in the end undermining their own credibility) for years, which helped contribute to the whole distrust of the media.

The problem now isn't so much as finding racist stuff than fake news triggering something bad. Like what could have happened with Pakistan. Now world leaders have to double check things for sure, or triple check. Trump seems like exactly the type to hair trigger react to something that is fake news without checking it.

Fake news (or rather inflammatory news based on vague info) has started wars before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish%E2%80%93American_War#USS_Maine  http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/fake-news-history-long-violent-214535

The really funny thing is that we still don't know what sank the Maine after three separate direct examinations of the wreck.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16253 on: December 27, 2016, 05:24:07 pm »

"Google is the gateway to the internet"
I use startpage, thank you very much.
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16254 on: December 27, 2016, 05:27:57 pm »

Such a system will not suppress the misrepresentations, lies or mistakes made by the MSM

Are we going to mention Fox or not? Because for every exaggeration, every manipulation, every spin on liberal-baised media, Fox alone has unleashed a torrent of misinformation.

If nothing else, your argument will get a more sympathetic ear if you stop pretending that liberal media is some kind of powerful ogre without paying some mind to the 400-ton troll that is Fox.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16255 on: December 27, 2016, 05:37:31 pm »

that's gonna work out so bad overall. all the covering up from mainstream journalist with an agenda pushed all the people away and into the open arms of the craziest cospiracy theorists. this helped opening the eyes on some issues at first, but now it has became a wild free for all between the lunatics and the crazy.
And rather than develop integrity, the MSM would rather seek to destroy their opponents coverage. It's pretty fucked tbh, because no one sees their opponents as ever winning, completely ignorant of how they are creating tools which their opponents can use just as easily as them if they are in power.


It's probably different to a small extent in every country. Here, the conservative right wing media kept bashing the MSM in general (and in the end undermining their own credibility) for years, which helped contribute to the whole distrust of the media.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I must be missing something because we don't need less media calling each other out for being lying pieces of shit, we need more. It's pretty much a running joke that people who subscribe to one news outlets make fun of those who subscribe to another as being deluded insane morons, things like Guardian reader, Daily Mail reader, CNN watcher or Fox watcher etc are derogatory terms for a reason, completely ignorant of how they should all be scrutinized and fucked picked apart. Giving them more power to escape scrutiny and eliminate more people who are capable of exposing their scummery is bound to end poorly.

The problem now isn't so much as finding racist stuff than fake news triggering something bad. Like what could have happened with Pakistan. Now world leaders have to double check things for sure, or triple check. Trump seems like exactly the type to hair trigger react to something that is fake news without checking it.
Fake news (or rather inflammatory news based on vague info) has started wars before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish%E2%80%93American_War#USS_Maine  http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/fake-news-history-long-violent-214535
Sounds like a perfect excuse to make Facebook and Google the arbiters of truth for most of the human species, giving that power to so few people is going to be abused and already is. FFS it's pointless, people want this, just like mass surveillance. The progressives are gonna Uturn about this when Trump's ilk use it to cover up their fuckups and turn their enemies into jokes, then when they get their turn in power they'll just use it to their own ends again and the cycle will never end. Rip in peas, have no faith in man

Are we going to mention Fox or not? Because for every exaggeration, every manipulation, every spin on liberal-baised media, Fox alone has unleashed a torrent of misinformation. If nothing else, your argument will get a more sympathetic ear if you stop pretending that liberal media is some kind of powerful ogre without paying some mind to the 400-ton troll that is Fox.
I thought Fox was without mentioning, sorta like how you don't need to mention RT works for Kremlin, BBC works for Britain and Al Jazzy works for Qatar. I don't bring up RW media because Bay12 already distrusts outlets like Breitbart and Fox, but is not so critical of MSNBC and CNN. They are a part of this torrent of shit that has fucking ruined all credibility for the worthless field that is journalism, I only fear that if the focus is allowed to shift to the outlets we all know are full of shit and away from the outlets we trust that support our views then we'll get sucked into partisanship. I made an analogy earlier in regards to partisan media when someone was talking about how biased news wasn't a problem, and I argued it was absolutely the fucking worst. My analogy was that imagine you have two sides reporting on a disaster, one reporting that there was an earthquake whilst another reporting there was a flood - the compromise it was a mudslide, whilst in actuality there was no disaster and both sides were full of shit.

The difficulty therein lies in that it is nearly impossible to gain power without the aid of some media outlet. Thus no one can attack their own media outlet without silencing themselves, which is suicidal - however, with the rise of the internet, it is possible, and people can get into power openly antagonistic of the media's honesty. With the likes of Facebook and Google, we move backwards, back to square fucking one

So in short, you're right, and it makes everything so much worse. I wish it could be partisan and we could blame evil libruls or conservatards, but it's fucked everywhere, everyone, all fucked.

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16256 on: December 27, 2016, 05:43:45 pm »

What does 'top 10 anime betrayals' (the first image) have to do with anything? The last imgur link is broken btw. But allright, you have a point with the hypocrisy.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 05:48:11 pm by smjjames »
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TempAcc

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16257 on: December 27, 2016, 05:44:21 pm »

Such a system will not suppress the misrepresentations, lies or mistakes made by the MSM

Are we going to mention Fox or not? Because for every exaggeration, every manipulation, every spin on liberal-baised media, Fox alone has unleashed a torrent of misinformation.

If nothing else, your argument will get a more sympathetic ear if you stop pretending that liberal media is some kind of powerful ogre without paying some mind to the 400-ton troll that is Fox.

Indeed, there are shitty things on both sides of the supposed spectrum, but here's the thing: does the existence of a bad thing justify the existence of another bad thing? Also, I think its quite a bit the other way, since whenever I go online, for every shitty thing fox pushes out, there are 3 or 4 equally shitty things comming out of other, supposedly non biased outlets.

I'd rather stick with my own senses rather then having big media daddy decide what I should be reading/watching/listening, regardless of who's the "400-ton troll" out there.

And LW makes a good point. Bay12 at large already distrusts breitbart and fox news, and with good reason, but seems rather trusting of CNN, MSNBC, etc. If anything, this year has shown us that pretty much every major outlet is far more interested in pushing narratives rather than actual news, so whats up with that? What makes one a 400 ton troll while the others are given a free pass?
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BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16258 on: December 27, 2016, 05:49:30 pm »

Heh, one of LoudWhispers pics is listed as removed.
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milo christiansen

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Language Enrichment Edition
« Reply #16259 on: December 27, 2016, 05:51:24 pm »

And LW makes a good point. Bay12 at large already distrusts breitbart and fox news, and with good reason, but seems rather trusting of CNN, MSNBC, etc. If anything, this year has shown us that pretty much every major outlet is far more interested in pushing narratives rather than actual news, so whats up with that? What makes one a 400 ton troll while the others are given a free pass?

Because the one agrees with the person doing the posting and the other doesn't? Don't you love moral high ground that, upon inspection, turn out to be swamp?

Both sides are wrong in the same way. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
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