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[smjjames]

Didn't Saddam use chemical weapons on his own countrymen though?

[Lord Shonus]

Iraq openly possessed and used chemical weapons until 1991. As part of the peace process after the Gulf War, Iraq was required to destroy them all.

[Baffler]

Weapons given to them by the UK and United States, no less, because it gave them an edge in the Iran-Iraq war.

[miauw62]

It's one of the most amazing things about my country. We started turning ocean into arable land way back in the 11th century already, using windmills and coordinated dike building. It's argued by sociologists / politicologists that ourp ancient tradition of coordinating and cooperating between local communties in the taming of the ocean is a very important factor in creating the 'poldermodel' politics we are reknowned for.

Sorry, nut the only politics the Netherlands is renowned for is Belgium's

That was a joke, right? Belgium is a country, not part of the Netherlands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_model

to be honest, the current political situation in Belgium has a lot to do with our history with the Netherlands, amongst many other things.

[smjjames]

* smjjames fires up the bulldozer and prepares to bulldoze the euroderail to the euro thread.

Lol

[Reelya]

Do you really want to discuss stupid? Because we can discuss the number of people who think Obama caused the 2008 housing crisis and Bush found WMDs.

From that conservative shill-piece, the New York Times: chemical weapons were found in Iraq.  I spent most of my energy finding that finding a source you would even possibly consider reliable.

Sorry but:

The United States had gone to war declaring it must destroy an active weapons of mass destruction program. Instead, American troops gradually found and ultimately suffered from the remnants of long-abandoned programs, built in close collaboration with the West.

Nobody denied Saddam had chemical weapons back in the 1980s. But Iraq is not really a tech innovator. The technology and chemical precursors were all imported. There's no hint that they were capable of producing anything after 1990, when they lost access to western chemicals, and foreign rocket technology. A bunch of 30 year old decaying mustard gas shells at the bottom of a lake is not the "WMD threat to America" smoking gun you're looking for.

~~~

This just hits home how fucking outlandish these "Rogue State enemies of America 5 years away from nuking America" theories really are. Iraq was 30 million people, under heavy sanctions, has no real industry to speak of, can barely make a homemade rocket, yet the whole America was lead to believe they were going to produce nukes that can hit America. You gotta be insane to believe that.

Similar, North Korea is 24 million people, has a gdp of only $18 billion, yet they're reportedly "5 years away from producing an ICBM that can hit America". That's fucking ridiculous. Only about 3-4 countries in the world have active ICBM programs, and they cost in the hundreds of billions to pursue. Australia has the same population of North Korea, but $1.5 trillion GDP. It would be clearly preposterous to think of Australia being able to produce an ICBM even in 20 years. How much more ridiculous would it be for a country with 1% of Australia's GDP to do it in 5?

Note: 5 years back, the story was that Iran was 5 years away from producing an ICBM that can hit America. Note the pattern in the bullshit stories: constantly telling you that these tiny nations with virtually no industry are somehow right on the verge of ICBMs hitting America. Start being skeptical of this repeated pattern of "news".

[smjjames]

I wonder what exactly the aluminum tubes that they made a fuss over were then.

Or whatever it was that they claimed as proof.

[Neonivek]

What is odd is that North Korea'sv biggest threat is not its missiles but its artillery...

Well... not to America mind you... But I honestly believe if it didn't have South Korea basically at a continuous state of gunpoint AND wasn't a nearly impossible country to invade... SOMEONE would have dealt with them by now.

[Dorsidwarf]

What is odd is that North Korea'sv biggest threat is not its missiles but its artillery...

Well... not to America mind you... But I honestly believe if it didn't have South Korea basically at a continuous state of gunpoint AND wasn't a nearly impossible country to invade... SOMEONE would have dealt with them by now.

The real thing keeping NK afloat has historically been China, the nuclear program and artillery emplacements are just an attempt to remain unassailable as their only ally loses interest in being belligerent on the behalf of a regime they no longer like.

[Reelya]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_aluminum_tubes

This is from the Department of Energy report:

Based on the reported specifications, the tubes could be used to manufacture gas centrifuge rotor cylinders for uranium enrichment. However, our analysis indicates that the specified tube diameter, which is half that of the centrifuge machine Iraq successfully tested in 1990, is only marginally large enough for practical centrifuge applications, and other specifications are not consistent with a gas centrifuge end use. Moreover, the quantity being sought suggests preparations for large-scale production of centrifuge machines, for which we have not seen related procurement efforts - and the tubes’ specifications suggest a centrifuge design quite different from any Iraq is known to have. ... While the gas centrifuge application cannot be ruled out, we assess that the procurement activity more likely supports a different application, such as conventional ordnance production. For example, the tube specifications and quantity appear to be generally consistent with their use as launch tubes for man-held anti-armor rockets or as tactical rocket casings. Also, the manner in which the procurement is being handled (multiple procurement agents, quotes obtained from multiple suppliers in diverse locations, and price haggling) seems to better match our expectations for a conventional Iraqi military buy than a major purchase for a clandestine weapons-of-mass destruction program. However, we have not identified an Iraq-specific, military, or other noncentrifuge application that precisely matches the tube specifications.

So the tubes could be used for the nuclear purpose, but they were at the bare minimum of diameter to even consider that, and 60000 of them: they would basically be mass-producing centrifuges. There's also the fact that they haggled prices with suppliers in 11 countries for these, all of which doesn't add up if they needed the parts to make one working centrifuge and wanted to do it on the quiet.

[misko27]

You know if Trump is President does that give us the right to ban foreigners from Ameripol? Think about it.

[smjjames]

You know if Trump is President does that give us the right to ban foreigners from Ameripol? Think about it.

The heck are you getting that idea from?

Anyway, North Carolina is being terrible (again).

Vox has a bit more in-depth article on it.

Anybody else feel like the feds need to go in and force them to straighten out? Though that'd obviously be a massive violation of states rights. Unless it's through the courts.

[Reelya]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-137437/Iraq-months-away-building-nuclear-bomb.html

Here's an example of a "Rogue State" hype acticle.

Introduction:

Saddam Hussein could be "months" away from assembling a nuclear bomb and has stockpiled possibly thousands of litres of deadly anthrax, a report on Iraq's military capabilities warned today.

But then the report goes on:

But it said Saddam could only achieve his nuclear ambition quickly if he had extensive help from a friendly foreign power. Unless he bought or stole weapons-grade nuclear material, he was years off producing his own atomic bomb.

Oh right, so Saddam was "months away" from a nuke, in every aspect except actually having any nuclear material or technology or parts to make the nuke. He lacked all the nuke bits, but could put one together if provided an IKEA nuke. I guess that's what the report is saying.

EDIT: They're still doing this with Iran:
http://www.adl.org/israel-international/iran/c/the-iranian-nuclear-threat-why-it-matters.html

The U.S. Department of Defense reported in April 2012: "With sufficient foreign assistance, Iran may be technically capable of flight-testing an intercontinental ballistic missile by 2015.”

Anyone can do anything in any timeframe given "sufficient" foreign assistance. It's the most empty concept ever in intelligence reports. The headline from DOD report was of course "Iran ICBMs to hit America by 2015", and the detail that it involved fantasy tech that the Iranians can't get access to, was buried down further in the report itself.

[smjjames]

Dailymail is hype embodied. Besides, Bush and co. are the ones who whipped up the story, the rest of the media was just feeding off of that.

[martinuzz]

IKEA nuke

Lol, hilarious.