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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1412178 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11670 on: November 11, 2016, 08:17:45 am »

It would almost suggest that perhaps the Republicans (And the democrats frankly) would need to change and evolve to try to be the best America to all the people.

The important aspect of compromise and change that has outright been resisted by both parties to the death.
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11671 on: November 11, 2016, 08:19:48 am »

That I will drink to.

The problem, is that both of those are so vehement against the other, that they actively pursecute each other. It's a self fullfilling prophesy.

The sad truth, is that the "small town values" people overwhelmingly embrace the conservative mindset, where the "big urban city dwellers" overwhelmingly embrace extreme liberal socialist values.

The two have almost no common ground.

The city people want things, demanded for everyone (well intentioned too), that cannot reasonably be serviced by small town dwellers, because they lack the infrastructure to do it. It would bankrupt them.  Then when these small town dwellers say that they need money to do it, the big city dwellers bitch about paying for it. Rural broadband initiative being a big example.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:27:24 am by wierd »
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DemonOfWrath

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11672 on: November 11, 2016, 08:22:41 am »

Ok here's the margins of each state I mentioned in my last post:

Florida +120k R

Idaho +220k R
Montana +100k R
Wyoming +120k R
North Dakota +120k R
South Dakota +110k R
Kansas +240k R
Oklahoma +530k R

I was actually surprised. Each of those 7 states have margins roughly equivalent or far bigger than Florida in terms of popular vote. Put together they provide 13 Florida's worth of margin in the popular vote.

And it does illustrate why those states don't matter under the EC system. No Democrat nominee is ever going to set foot in Oklahoma, because literally 2/3 of the state vote Republican and even if you convince 200,000 voters to switch you'd still lose the state and get nothing. Whereas in a popular vote that'd matter a lot as it would chance the margin by 400,000. I can't say that those small states would get attention and matter in a popular vote system but there's definitely a rational of why they could
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:30:30 am by DemonOfWrath »
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11673 on: November 11, 2016, 08:28:18 am »

But how much compared to CA? ;)

Also, same thing I said to Neon--- This election is an anomaly. Thats why all the poll data is wrong. It does not fit any of the models.

You are better off using historic data from past elections.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:30:22 am by wierd »
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DemonOfWrath

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11674 on: November 11, 2016, 08:31:52 am »

California currently has a margin of 2.5 million, so those 7 together would be about 60% of California, so actually roughly equivalent to how much they're worth in the EC.

And well it's just a lot quicker to use the current results as I have the cnn page in my browser history. Like I said I'm not American, so I'm not that invested into the idea either way so I can't be bothered looking up older data.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:37:07 am by DemonOfWrath »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11675 on: November 11, 2016, 08:32:05 am »

the only people who complain about it every 4 years, are the losers.

for the past 8, it was the gop.

this time, it fell the other way.

It is NOT direct democracy, it does not claim to be, and never has. The claim that the US is a democracy is a filthy lie promulgated by people who have never had a civics lesson in their lives, and are not qualified to comment about the government they criticize.

You assert that the imbalance in power is bad, and make assertions about this. Say it is patently false-- Yet you are forgetting how the US was formed, and why it is the way it is.  It was formed much the way the EU did-- each state was its own unique territory, a small nation, unto itself, more or less. Each had its own laws, customs, culture-- No state wanted any other to be able to just take the reigns of power and run with them.  That negative sentiment the EU feels about Belgum and Germany being little dictators? Yeah, we didnt want that.

When we initially formed our government, the framers of our government had nothing to look at really except the British parliamentary system. But there is a problem-- We DONT have a monarch, We DONT have nobles.  How the hell do we do the Magna Carta, and the House of Lords without a king, and without nobles?!  The answer, is elected representatives, of which the president is the prime representative. But how do we get the president to not always come from the same damned state all the time representing the same increasingly influential people?  We divide the power, and we make it very hard to consolidate that power.

Yes, the electoral college is "unfair", in that it denies the majority the power of being tyrants.

That is a GOOD thing.
Do you guys want a Queen cos we can give you one if you want a parliament :>

wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11676 on: November 11, 2016, 08:33:52 am »

Thank you for the generous offer, but I think you brits have enough trouble with your Brexit than you can handle. Adding us hot headed yanks back into your parliament is just too much for you I think. ;P

Seen our protesters? They dont "Do" the "silent desperation is the English way" thing.

besides, which from amongst our esteemed ranks would you raise to the house of lords?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:38:51 am by wierd »
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Rolan7

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11677 on: November 11, 2016, 08:49:30 am »

Phew jeez finally caught up again.  Making myself catch up before posting is actually kinda helpful for calming down :P
Fakedit:  Well of course a bunch more got posted.  I'm seeing support against FPTP, excellent, arguably the most important single issue really.  (that and money for votes)
the only people who complain about it every 4 years, are the losers.

for the past 8, it was the gop.
I don't think your big-state-domination idea makes sense anymore, but I do acknowledge that it was the *purpose* and these strange are results are, technically, by design.  Is that design still valid after two centuries?  I'm honestly not sure, leaning towards no.

Oh but also I disagree with what you said there.  Liberals I know have groused about the electoral college for the past 8 years as well.  Not to nitpick you overly, but it honestly isn't *just* a sour grapes situation.  Heh, more a way to look smart by complaining about something "complicated".  My friends and I agree that First Past The Post is almost infinitely worse of a problem, though.  FPTP is horrible, living-in-a-dystopia horrible.

Like 30 or how even many years in politics.
PHD lawyer from Yale univercity.
This implies some sort of understanding the fact, that, when you call people deplorable, they at least get dissapointed.



I still wonder, how Hillary managed to publicly call like 25 % of country  "basket of deplorables "
Quote from: What she ACTUALLY said
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?
She didn't mean 50%, she meant that he had two main types of supporters.  Then she went on to praise the other type for having hope despite hardship, and argued that she could actually help them instead of offering meaningless lies.
Quote from: 11 million people is 3%, not 25% of the USA
He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million.
The entire point of the speech being to see the good in Trump's supporters, by setting aside the irredeemable bigots for a moment and focusing on the good in the rest.
But noooo, Clinton never outreached to the poor working class /s  (That's basically *most of what she managed to get say*, between controversy)

Also she apologized the next day, saying she shouldn't have said half.  But nope, too late.  It's so easy to take something COMPLETELY out of context and quote it ad nauseam instead of actually thinking.
And while that may sound hypocritical...  I think "pussygate" was way overblown.  My problem with Trump was that he had no reliable platform, and no political history to predict based on.  He outright lied, constantly, but people largely didn't care.  All we knew was that he was a liar, a terrible businessman who refused to reveal his actual "wealth", and chose Mike Fucking Pence as VP.

And yeah, bigots loved him, but that's actually no reason to hate someone.  He's not responsible for who loves him.  (Maybe investigate *why* they love him, and attack that)
I mean, his initial refusal to renounce David Duke and the KKK were pretty funny ("Honestly, I don't know David Duke." is at least equal to "What is Aleppo?".  And the interviewer specially asked about "the KKK").  But he did disavow them later.

I'm just trying to figure out why you occasionally use "ferex" in your posts. I have no idea where it originated from, and dictionaries offer up nothing.
fer example

For example with a southern accent, shortened to fewer letters.
I like that you do this, I find myself using "y'all" more now :P  I used "yous" for a while but "y'all" is clearer than that Northern stuff.

and now for something my friend made as we were playing NWoD trawling old Family Circus drunk

I'm so proud that this thread is still alive, please stay cool so no more bans ;_;

Edit:  Added links
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:51:54 am by Rolan7 »
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11678 on: November 11, 2016, 08:51:02 am »

Don't worry TYPICALLY the bans aren't people who have been here for a long time.

They are people who pop in, get really mad, and then throw a hissyfit.

If I ever insult someone in an argument, I'll feel ashamed. It is the one thing that one must never do in an argument.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:52:46 am by Neonivek »
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11679 on: November 11, 2016, 09:04:26 am »

i am just bombastic. mainiac and i share that fault. it is why i disappear from threads like this for months at a time. it's just better that way i think.  i dont mean harm, but i tend to be too brusk. just...... damnit. i pointed this shit out in the damn primaries. >.<
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11680 on: November 11, 2016, 09:46:58 am »

Man, woke up. Thread moved. This is going to take a bit. Probably a lot I missed or just didn't have the energy to respond to.
But how much compared to CA? ;)

Also, same thing I said to Neon--- This election is an anomaly. Thats why all the poll data is wrong. It does not fit any of the models.

You are better off using historic data from past elections.
Between them? They're about half a CA -- its margin was ~2.5m D, and there was +1.2m between those seven (note: Between them and texas, CA would have about been canceled out).

You want historic margins? 2012:ID 208 MO 259 WY 101 ND 64 SD 65 KS 252 OK 448: Total 1.3m

CA's margin? 3m. For funsies? Texas was a million, which means they were about a tennessee from matching cali.

2000: ID 198 MO 78 WY 87 ND 79 SD 72 KS 223 OK 270: Total 1m. CA 1.2m. Texas? 1.3m, which would have canceled CA on its own.

Oddly enough, the popular vote margins, which are what would matter in a popular election, aren't too abnormal this election.

newsflash. Only ONE of those is a swing state.


TX is so red, you couldnt possiby make it any redder.

Ca and NYC are so blue, you couldnt possibly make them any bluer.

Fl is the swing state.
Real newsflash: Texas spent like half the counting period flipping, and is something like 2-3 generations from either going blue or being a persistent battleground state. It's been getting less red the more the latino population grows and the GOP shits on it, and the more its urban areas continue to grow. Popular vote wise? There was less than a million difference this race, with a population of 27 and turnout of ~8, bit shy of double that registered voters, and time and a bit in voting age population. You're significantly overstating how red the state is.

NY likely would have been in play if sanders had been running -- the financial sector and whatnot have big influence there, and they would have been significantly less supportive of the guy that spends most of his time yelling more or less about how they need to be destroyed and the economy turned to shambles, with all that means for the rest of local efforts. It probably would have still gone blue, but the margin would almost certainly have been notably smaller.

CA actually is solid blue, with nothing much that could change that, but so far as a national popular vote goes, you kinda' have to remember that its R contingent is larger than some other states have total population. Under the EC? Entire states worth of population in CA is being ignored, because their voice not only doesn't matter in that system, but is actively ripped from them and used to support their opponents. Easily the worst part about the EC is the flat fact that completely disenfranchises a massive chunk of the country -- and not just does that, but does that in just about the worst way possible, by taking their support, spitting on it, and then giving it to people they didn't vote for. Part of that's the FTFP, but the rest is how the votes clump up under an elector and how disproportionate the effect of a person's vote is between states. Someone out in the boonies just matters more than someone in the city, significantly so, so far as EC goes (Fun fact: Voters in arizona? Under the EC, matters around 550 times more than ones from cali). Even under a proportional instead of FTFP EC system, places like cali would be seeing thousands upon thousands of people get their vote functionally stripped from them, just because so many more people are allocated to a single elector. You could maybe change that by actually assigning the number of electors a state gets based specifically on population and nothing else, but that would bugger smaller states as much as anything.

... anyway.
Plus the fact that she kind of ignored the class that Trump was pandering to, or came off as hollow.
Strangle. The class that trump pandered to was the class most of what clinton actually bloody said was aimed right at, if not exclusively due to the sheer blunt truth that shit that actually helps them helps a lot of people. The fact is that the attention she gave to that class was ignored by media and population, in massive spite of the amount she did.

Every time I hear that line, my grudging and horrified belief in the voodoo curse grows. Somehow any and all liberal efforts directed towards rural/post-manufacturing workers and communities is being actively erased from the minds of my countrymen and fellow humans. I'm trying to say that as a joke but the more people talk about this election over these last few days the less certain I'm actually managing it.

Not just directed at you, though, smj. It came up multiple times since I went to sleep.
A segment of Trump's own voters don't even support him, they're just tired of political establishment and party corruption and think he'll screw it up for all of them.
Majority, MSH. Majority. Most of trump's voters didn't like him, from what we could tell. They weren't voting for him, they were voting for his lies and whatever antipathy they had for the democrat party, for whatever particular reasons applied to them. Like a competent con man, he was good at lying in the right way to get people to ignore everything else he said and did.

Don't you sit there and lecture me on working class financial despair. I've been saying the Dems need to make that their thing since 2012.
It's been their thing since before you were born. It is expressly (a major part of) what is behind the emphasis on education, the emphasis on infrastructure, the emphasis on health care, the emphasis on community integration, strengthening, and cultural enrichment, the emphasis on work outreach, unemployment benefits, minimum wage, and on, and on, and on. What they needed to do on that front wasn't make it a focus, because it was already the focus, even above and beyond social issues, it was lie out their fucking ass about what they were going to manage and how they were going to go about it, while saying sod all about actual implementation. That's what made trump competitive in this election. Now, sanders, yeah, sanders would have done that, he's just worse at it than trump. In a fight between ideologue and con man the former's probably not going to win.

Yep. One of the main underlying problems for not just healthcare. A state that does not uphold a framework in which the people can provide adequatly for themselves is doomed to become a failed state, for it loses it's legitimacy of social contract.
Fun fact: The political group that has been persistently working to undermine that framework for decades? Just got elected :3
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Folly

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11681 on: November 11, 2016, 10:06:29 am »

CNN reporting just shy of 400 people arrested nationwide last night in anti-Trump protests/riots. Tonight is expected to be worse.

Buckle up buckaroos.
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11682 on: November 11, 2016, 10:09:43 am »

CNN reporting just shy of 400 people arrested nationwide last night in anti-Trump protests/riots. Tonight is expected to be worse.

Buckle up buckaroos.

Ok... NOW it is dumb :P
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11683 on: November 11, 2016, 10:24:01 am »

CNN reporting just shy of 400 people arrested nationwide last night in anti-Trump protests/riots. Tonight is expected to be worse.

Buckle up buckaroos.

Ok... NOW it is dumb :P

How is it dumb? Also, I heard it was more like 200. But yeah, it's only going to get worse, but the protests won't last forever because people have lives, except for those that don't really.
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Folly

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #11684 on: November 11, 2016, 10:30:17 am »

Also, I heard it was more like 200.

Over 200 in one state, 185 in another state.
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