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[Splint]

Alright, so here's the jist of this. First off, no. This isn't historically accurate. Like, at all. The main point of this thread is to spitball ideas in regards to both civs, and get some input on to what might be better, or get some outside ideas.

For a while now, predominantly inspired by a mix of the For Honor Trailers and Mount and Blade: Warband, I've wanted to make a mod based on two things.

A Norse civ, and a Knightly Kingdom-type of civ. Thanks to the efforts in the past of one Grim Portent, I have been able to update the existing unfinished Norse Fortress mod enough to make it playable. In terms of the latter, though, I'm sort of stuck.

I'm not the best at interactions, reactions, setting skill rates or attributes, and while I have the means to set up workshops, and I have the entity finished and can use humans as a base creature, beyond that, I'm... Honestly at a loss. Much of what i want to do requires skills beyond my reckoning in DFHack or much more intimate knowledge of how things work in the raws.

The Norse have the following facets, which isn't much.
50/50 chance of berserkers being born - They're hard to control and fearless. Not smart to make them be your trusted craftsmen.
Light Armor - They lack anything approaching rigid armor beyond their helmets and shields. In combat they rely on speed, skill, and decent weaponry.
Size - They're a little bit larger on average than humans at present.
Partially Finished Entity - Complete with values and ethics that fit a culture that values skill at arms, craftsmanship, commerce, and creativity (poetry specifically.) Unfortunately, they lack a finished language file, resulting in numerous blanks in names of damn near everything most of the time.
Unique weapon: The Hunting Bow. To facilitate hunting for the Norsemen, this crossbow skill weapon can also serve in a different capacity, as in melee the bow itself isn't "used." Rather the weapon comes with a hunter's seax and buckler for attacking enemies in melee and finish off animals.

The Saxons
Full set of clothing, arms, and armor - I borrowed items from Stal's Armory or made the items myself. Shirts, hose, and hats, leather scale armor, plate harnesses, and great helms. Stuff like that.
Partially Finished Entity - More or less. Their present values are place holders unfortunately, and they lack a language file.
Unique Weaponry - Polehammers and war axes with spikes, spiked and flanged maces/flails, longbows and heavy-duty arbalests, and various lengths of swords with an edged crossguard attack.
Base creature - Easy enough, as humans provide a ready base. Presently only divided into undifferentiated male and female serfs and woodsmen.
Need a better name - I'm not fond of the name Monarchists, but it's the best i could come up with on short notice.
A handful of custom buildings: The Shrine of Duty to turn Squires into Generalist (but still morale and pain susceptible) Knights, pain and fear immune, sword-toting, raging Templars, or fearless trancing blunt-force-trauma-inducing Paladins.) Mercenary Post, which turns serfs into Watchmen (blunt and shield/armor,) Seigemen (ranged weapons,) or Men-at-Arms(edged, armor, shield) and Bedmaker's Bench, which ideally would plate beds with precious metals or make them out of stone, for those wood-poor areas.

Things I haven't even gotten to yet really though are those very castes, as well as how to handle the "lowborn" and military castes.

I'm looking for ideas, help, and of course people willing to do any bug-testing once I get both civs fleshed out. I'll take any suggestions or aid for either civ.

[Meph]

Unfortunately, they lack a finished language file, resulting in numerous blanks in names of damn near everything most of the time.

I can give you a finish language file if you like. I have one in old Masterwork, frost giants use it.

and they lack a language file.

If they are british-style knights, you could give them an english language file.

Monarchists names: Empire. Knights. Saxons. If you want Norse for vikins, you might as well get RL names for the knights. Knights of the holy order, or Templar. Norse vs Templar sounds good, no?

A handful of custom buildings: The Shrine of Duty to turn Squires into Generalist (but still morale and pain susceptible) Knights, pain and fear immune, sword-toting, raging Templars, or fearless trancing blunt-force-trauma-inducing Paladins.) Mercenary Post, which turns serfs into Watchmen (blunt and shield/armor,) Seigemen (ranged weapons,) or Men-at-Arms(edged, armor, shield) and Bedmaker's Bench, which ideally would plate beds with precious metals or make them out of stone, for those wood-poor areas.

Are these done or are these issues you need help with?

PS: I wanted to do 4 human civs for masterwork once: Northeners (Vikings/Barbarians/Nordic Religions), Easteners (Japanese/Samurai/Buddhists/Shinto), Southeners (Roman/Greek Legion/Pantheon), Westerners (Knights/Holy Christian Empire).

It still think its a neat idea.

[Putnam]

Putting Rome south, Christianity west and Vikings north is very German of you

[Meph]

Putting Rome south, Christianity west and Vikings north is very German of you

Fine, Easterners are Slavic people, ok? Or Turkish/Ottoman

Edit: What would the Us version of this be? Northeners either friendly, eh, Canadians or Inuits; Easterners speak with Boston dialect, Southeners are either Rednecks or Mexicans/Maya, and Westeners are hipsters from Seattle/Portland?

[Splint]

Name - Saxons work, I suppose. Might not be the best/most accurate, but considering I was aiming for a general western european feel (of which people generally think English or German for whatever reason) for them, I think it may do the job. And I can find an English language file for them. I was going to random gen a language, but I can rip an english language file from any old mod to use for them.

Although just to mess with people if there is a french language file laying around somewhere I might use that instead. Everyone forgets the Franks.

Well, besides history-minded folks and French people.

Buildings - I have these buildings done, I was simply putting them there to let others know those are buildings that are done.

Norse - Finnish works. Not really the language people think of when they think Norsemen, but it'll do the job and at least be finished, compared to the language file Grim was working on. I dunno if he was going for actual old norse or not.

Other civs - I kinda considered that myself, but it's mainly a matter of making them all feel different. The Norsemen have their reliance on light kit, and minor difficulty of control of roughly half their population, and I wanted to have them greatly value well-made swords - generally having superior cutting power and made at its own workshop.

The Saxons meanwhile I'm unsure if I just want a handful of "lumped together" castes for different general skillsets (Craftsmen, smiths, engineers for stonework/mechanic stuff) or go all out with a guild system similar to what's employed by the Masterwork humans, along with a reliance on the Knights and "Mercenary" castes or a large levy of the general population when serious fighting needs to be done.

How to differentiate an East Asian/Mediterranean civ is something I can't rightly think of.

US Version - Rednecks and Hillbillies with a penchant for ranged combat and brawling with a love of beer, Northerners have this thing for highly toxic heavy industry, Westerners would be dirty Liberals who suck at fighting but love them some money, and Easterners would be angry city folk with a distrust for law enforcement. If we stuck to the one country that is

[vettlingr]

Im working on an old norse/icelandic language for a norse mythology mod im making. it will become accessable as soon as the mod is releaseed, until then. I could give you the half done skeleton file?

furthermore, do the font in dwarf fortress support Þþ, Öö, ðÐ, áÁ, íÍ, éÉ, óÓ, úÚ, and ýÝ??

[Splint]

I believe it does, since some of those are used in-game for items or soldier tiles if I'm not mistaken (or else I've seen them used in some capacity. Dunno about that first one.)

And I'd appreciate it immensely. 

EDIT: Serious question, how should the Saxons be handled as far as castes go?

The "Lumped up" castes I had in mind are below. It means less work because I don't have to mess with transformation interactions, adding a dummy "absentee" creature, or anything like that.

Serfs: Farming and fishing; likely forms the bulk of your forces during times of conflict.
Engineers: Masonry/mechanical stuff
Clerics: Healing/Admin skills
Woodsmen: Animals and wood working; also the main ranger caste
Craftsmen: Crafting/Smithing.
Knights: Combat caste only.

However, if I do a guild approach, I'd end up with something... Confusing, but possibly functional, if it works correctly. The guildsman castes would have serious deficits to most, if not all, food-related stuff along with the normal reductions in learning that the baseline Serf has.

Weaver's Guild: Clothesmaking, weaving, shearing, and spinning. A Guild Workshop would be able to crank out bulk orders of bags and silk, yarn, and fiber clothing.
Woodworker's Guild: Obvious stuff, along with bulk production of barrels, bins, and bedroom sets from wood. Possibly also a small bonus to woodcrafting.
Craftsmen Guild: The usual skills besides clothing related ones. If you want lots of a particular item, such as a tankload of bracelets for a trade agreement, there's is the workshop to have it done.
Leatherworker's Guild: Tanning and leatherworking. Seems odd for there to be a guild for only two jobs, but considering the utility of leather, I'd call it fair. Their shop would be able to bulk produce leather clothing as well as leather armor in basic or full variants (basic being head and body protection vs the full set up for the full kit,) as well a bulk order leather bags and waterskins. Alternatively, roll them into the Weaver's Guild as a general Clothesmaker Guild.
Fishermen's Guild: The normal stuff, with multiple fish-farming farming workshops ala Masterwork a swell as the occasional bit of bird meat.
Smithing Guild: Duh. Can bulk order storage items of copper, tin, zinc, brass, nickle, and if you really want to, lead. Additionally amenities sets of cabinets and such from precious metals. Maybe get rid of a bedmaker bench and have them be able to plate wooden beds with precious metals instead.
Stoneworker's Guild: Masonry, Mining, Architecture. Bulk production of amenities and random statues.
Engineering Guild: Mechanics and whatnot. Also bulk order stone/metal mechs and produce wooden ones. Possibly also trap components?
Sanctuary: A place of learning for individuals of the more intellectual sort. Allows for bulk production of parchment ingredients. Clerics may also opt to become Physicians (specializing themselves in medical pursuits) or A combat-support unit: The Hospitaller - A midground between Paladins and Knights that specializes in blunt weapons use and using interactions to buff allies.
Garrison Post: Men-at-Arms can be made from Serfs, improving their abilities as soldiers, but at the expense of thier farming skills. Scrap the three commoner solider ideas and simply roll them into one here and drop the individual bonuses to a similar standard. Requires a leave of absence for a month for training and a training kit made at the normal craftsman workshop.
Shrine of Duty: Squires may take an oath as stated before to one of three military paths as Knights, Templars, or Paladins.
Ranger's Guild: Huntsmen and animal trainers. Can bulk produce cages in bunches of four from wood, as well as arrows and hunting bolts for short bows and crossbows.

Serfs don't get a guild, as they're expected to know how to till the soil and tend to the herds.

Additionally, a possible progression of steadily worsening cave adaptation that eventually results in the unit going mad, turning into feral peasants or knights. As a result, these creatures can also be encountered in the caverns (as a separate creature, for continuity's sake.) When killed in the wild, they leave behind a corpse that can be searched in the sanctuary for items. Ones that turn from your own civ will still have their gear. I'd say at max adaptation there's a chance every year for the unfortunate unit to lose it.

This would be meant to discourage strict underground living for long periods, as well as to let the miners have a break so they don't go mental and start thinking they're kin to trogs.

Woodsmen would stay as a sort of middle-road random caste that can do a little building, a little fighting, and a little crafting all competently.

Also consider them using short bows and hunting crossbows as standard weapons with Longbows and heavy hitting Arbalests as an upgrade, possibly requiring the woodworker's guild to make a specialized toolkit for the workshop to make them and the smithing or crafting guild to make a durable mold for thier their attendant ammo (to cast the heads, of course.)

Military castes would be reduced to the Knight castes and Watchmen.

Squire: Basic military caste. About half as common as serfs. Them and watchmen would learn everything military related at normal rates (serfs and guildsmen can only learn axe, spear, shield, and crossbow at slightly under the normal rate.)
Knight: As said, general purpose lesser noble soldier. High skill areas for melee skills, and a slightly better ranged skill rate, but still poor compared to woodsmen. Susceptible to pain, exhaustion, and morale, but still far superior to Squires and Watchmen.
Templar: Specializes in sword, dodge, and armor use, with other melee skills suffering immensely. Cannot learn ranged skills. No pain, fear, or exertion, and prone to rage.
Paladin: Blunt weapon fighter. Armor and shield. Has a hard time learning bladed weapons and polearms, and can't learn ranged weapon skills. No fear, no exertion, and trances, but is susceptible to pain.
Hospitaller: Blunt weapon fighter. Armor, shield, no ranged skills. Buffs allies for healing, endurance, and agility during combat? Possibly scrap them, but I'd like to include them somehow.
Watchman: Military serfs, essentially.

Nobles I figured on, as analogues to the usuals: initially, simply a Lord, followed by a Marquess, and finally Earl. These nobles are expected to retain small bodyguard units of 1, 3, and 5 men respectively (that is, they are considered military squads.)
Lords can assign Knights to their own little three-man squads (the knight and two retainers,) but doing so also entitles them to their own modest lodgings.
Marquess and Earl can do the same for Templars, Paladins, and Hospitallers.
As a flavor thing, the Earl can also permit guilds to establish a local leadership by selecting a prominent guildsman to lead a given guild. These nobles would be oh so very useless, but for roleplaying purposes i feel would make the guild finally feel like a permanent fixture, or used as a means of recognizing the guilds you make the most use of.

Additionally, I figure the duty of Champion would be restricted to Knights and such.

Thoughts? Anyone?

Additionally, also more than happy to hear out ideas on the Norsemen.

[vjmdhzgr]

Well I'm not entirely sure what to suggest here, but I think it might be worth mentioning that historically the word berserkers wasn't for people that went all crazy while fighting. A good translation of their role would probably be: champion. They were like a favored warrior of a jarl. Their name comes from them wearing what was most likely a bear fur shirt. Though it's still not entirely clear, looking at what little direct historical evidence there is results in that as the best conclusion. Now obviously those aren't as fun, but I don't know maybe there's some kind of interesting mechanic in there.

As for saxons, it seems like you're going a bit out of the time period they were in. Saxon refers to a group of people that originated in northwestern Germany and migrated to Great Britain around the 6th century. As far as I can tell Saxon is only really an applicable term between around 400 AD to 700 AD. By 700 I guess they were all just Anglo-Saxon. Anyway the point is I don't think they really had serfs, engineers, clerics, knights, or guilds. Some of that is late Anglo-Saxon stuff, but some more of it still is even later. They at no point had knights and templars are not only outside of the time period, they weren't even based in the same landmass. Anglo-Saxons however did have a notable caste system which could probably work well in a mod. I don't have access to very good explanations and I'm a bit tired of checking and making sure things are correct, but I'd recommend investigating it yourself. There's like, ceorls and stuff. Different classes of freemen.

[Splint]

I opted for Saxon because it sounds... Right, I suppose. You can also blame Meph. I'm also definitely not going for historically accurate. Hell, the berserkers in the Norse civ are actually Grim's work, presumably something unfinished. But come on, you can't say the term "Saxon Knight" doesn't hit the ear right.

So, that said, don't worry about historical accuracy. The one thing that won't happen is "advanced" technology (anything to do with steam or firearms, basically.) Otherwise, I'm open to any ideas, so long as they fit the theme of either one in some way.

[vettlingr]

Well, historically, contemporal saxons and norse were very similar, almost identical if you will, in both belief, equipment and tradition, they were also almost mutually intelligable to each other, or atleast to the south jutes.

Ofcourse, as this is !!VIKINGS!! one can not be too historical or chronistic in the first place. hehe

Anyway, ive uploaded the alpha of the old norse language file to the dwarven filedump in the minor mods selection, so you can get it there.

You might have to tweak it a little to get it working properly, like replacing "þ" with "th" or things alike.

[Meph]

Maybe you could make only a few castes for each civ:

The knights/templars/saxons get working/farming/crafting castes.
The norse/vikings get military castes.

So one civ gets a bonus to buildings and establishing their fort and higher value crafts; while the other gets better combat, less injuries and maybe some special interactions for combat.

It would help to make them more distinct from each other.

[Splint]

In hindsight, a few lump-up castes would actually probably suit the Norse civ pretty well.

Free/Freedmen: Basic agricultural and military caste. Compared to the Saxon serf/peasant, rather than spears, axes, and shields being the few things they can sort-of use, Norse Freemen have bonuses to these skills. Minor-to-severe learning deficits to other areas.

Craftsman: Duh. Also includes carpenters.

Smiths: Also duh. Possibly vital to the making of various weaponry (as all other castes learn smithing abysmally slowly.) Also takes care of gem-related work (as I feel a blacksmith has more reason to somewhat know how to cut and set gems than a woodcrafter.)

Huntsmen: Animal and fishing skills. Ranged fighting caste comparable to Saxon Woodsmen.

Nobleman: Rarer caste. Comparable to Saxon Knights. Possibly required to lead a larger settlement's military?

Madman: very rare caste. Basically the berserker caste as I presently have it, with their mental traits being all over the place. They and noblemen would be fearless (one because they're too nutshit to know what fear is anymore, the other because of Honor Before Reason.)

Sages: Medical and admin caste analogues to the Saxon cleric.

The norse as a rule have great difficulty picking up anything to do with heavy machinery, architecture, and stoneworking, and have no castes that pick up these skills very well, if at all.

Building ideas

Weapon Forge: Under normal circumstances have the Norse have only the Atgeir (A slightly better version of normal spears; kind of an inbetween of pikes and spears in terms of performance,) seax (knife user,) wood splitting axe (duh,) knobbed mace, staking mauls, and long seax (sword.) for melee combat.

The Weapon Forge however produces more purpose-built melee weapons in the form of the Gungnir (essentially a one-handed pike,) War Axe (one-handed axe) Dane Axe (great axe) Valkyrja swords (great swords, though I know they're usually one-handed from what I've seen) mjolnir (possibly a maul or polehammer?) and Ulfberht swords (one-handed swords.) These are intended to be somewhat expensive weapons meant for elite soldiers and champions, and much improved over the vanilla weapons.

Fletcher's Workshop: Allows the production of war bows and the copying of crossbows and arbalests, as well as the ability to make their attendant ammo if you kill feral peasants in the caverns/mountains (the item corpses having a chance to yield the mods for making ammo for these weapons,) to give the Norse access to deadlier ranged firepower over their normal hunting bows and short bows.

Encourages you to hunt specific enemies, I'd say.

Woodworker's Bench: Allows the Norse to take advantage of their skills with wood and create statues, mechanisms, and bulk production of storage items from wood. If it can hold items or liquid, this workshop will let you pump them out at two for one deals (so you get six jugs or cups instead of just three, for example.) A bulk order on barrels would net you 8 barrels for four logs, for example.

Possibly take a page from the Orcs and Grim's possibly original intent of having a means to fund Viking groups to bring back goodies. Would have to be expensive materials-wise, to make up for the fact force-siege doesn't work anymore. With DFHack this could include slaves?

An explorative mindset also possibly makes them either only suffer from vanilla cave adaptation or not at all, for as far as they're concerned, who knows what riches or glories await around the next bend in the underdark?

[vettlingr]

Berserkr means champion, and is named due to their clothing, not the mood they were in. Norrænir menn didnt keep madmen around because they were good fighters, rather berserkr is a title reserved for those able to master weapon skills and conquer their own fear.

[Splint]

Again, this isn't strict historical accuracy. I figure madman is a better title than berserker partially because at present the only distinguishing trait is they rage while normal norsemen don't. There wasn't even a distinguishing name. They aren't even inherently better fighters or anything.

The mod actually does use the term of Berserkr for the champion noble, though. So there's that.

[smakemupagus]

Possibly take a page from the Orcs and Grim's possibly original intent of having a means to fund Viking groups to bring back goodies. Would have to be expensive materials-wise, to make up for the fact force-siege doesn't work anymore. With DFHack this could include slaves?

FWIW Regarding balance, force-siege was a fun mechanic but I don't feel like it ever made "raiding" reactions harder or less profitable -- you know the enemy is coming, so you set up to meet them in combat on a field arranged to your benefit (or with traps if you're a dirty elf ) and you just get that much more experience and loot for the same price anyway.