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[burned]

Unfortunately, burned is misinformed. The message is the same both for a truly dead civ and for a "struggling" one. A struggling civ provides a caravan and a liaison, and you're likely to be saddled with an emergency monarch selection early on. You'll also get an unlimited number of migrant waves.

You definitely provided more information than myself, but I don't see where I provided misinformation.
Please do correct me where I contradict how the game works.




And, next time I'll spend the five seconds on a remark about at Random_Dragon to get it right. ;]




edit: emoticon for friendly jest emphasis!

[Random_Dragon]

Pay attention to the part about the message saying dead or DYING. That's the part you got wrong.

Are you seriously just gonna shitpost about my earlier complaining from now on? -_-

[FantasticDorf]

Pay attention to the part about the message saying dead or DYING. That's the part you got wrong.

Are you seriously just gonna shitpost about my earlier complaining from now on? -_-

This thread will now be a dozen pages of bitching about my bitching. :V

I rest my -well crafted- case.

[Random_Dragon]

I rest my -well crafted- case.

This is a "Random_Dragon is a derp" thread. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It menaces with spikes of shitpostite, and is encircled with bands of griping metal. On the item is an image of Random_Dragon and giant desert scorpions in shitpostite. The giant desert scorpions are weeping. Random_Dragon is raising the giant desert scorpions.

:V

[burned]

Pay attention to the part about the message saying dead or DYING. That's the part you got wrong.

Are you seriously just gonna shitpost about my earlier complaining from now on? -_-

For what it's worth, I was sincerely making a friendly jest. I do apologize if it was taken otherwise.

I know what the message says. I know that it displays whether your civ is dead or dying. I commend PatrikLundell for providing way more information than I did for Afghani84 to consume, but I didn't provide anything contradictory.

[Random_Dragon]

It's fine. :V

And yeah, I guess the idea was that it can mean more than the situation you presented, thus it's more than what your answer suggests but not an outright contradiction.

The idea that the parent civ might not be DEAD does carry different implications compared to a fully extinct one though, mostly via getting more migrants, receiving trade, and the wonderul risk of getting a monarch and thus abruptly having room requirements and mandates to deal with way earlier than you would otherwise.

[FantasticDorf]

If it helps you feel better random_dragon, there is a "stay alive" lifetime goal that might fit in well with a interpretation of all dwarves/a particular entity/species living as homeless refugees living from meal to meal rather than focusing on anything particular. No idea how to generate it, but its there. (some input would be nice from more travelled adventure mode players)

So, uh. Im pretty sure that creature/adventurer is just going to sit still holding a leaf over its head hoping nobody sees it with its legendary ambusher statistics. Pretty anti-climatic to fufill your dream just before your adventurer dies of old age, what are you supposed to do? Practice elven flower embroidery for the rest of your life peacefully on a ranch?

Urgh. makes me feel ill.

[burned]

The idea that the parent civ might not be DEAD does carry different implications compared to a fully extinct one though . . .

Fair enough, but Afghani84's question was about a dead civ. I generated a world that had no dwarves, no elves, no humans, and only 5 goblins left at the end of 1000 years (hence, the note under the image) mainly to address the scenario he asked about. And again, PatrikLundell followed up with more details than I did. I would argue that I was more direct with his specific question, rather than "misinformed" as PatrikLundell suggested.


I mainly answer questions to save Tarn five seconds, so he could . . . omg, I'm kidding!

[PatrikLundell]

@burned: The way I read your post was that the message implied you had a dead civ, and for the last year or so it has been a common mistake to fail to realize there is a significant game play difference between dead and dying, with a number of people quite insistently claim civs that exhibit the dying traits are in fact dead based on the (logical but incorrect) conclusion that since no dwarf had existed for the last 1000 years and the civ haven't had any non dwarven members either, the civ must be dead as a door nail. I didn't want Afghani84 to get the impression that the message meant a civ was truly dead, as it's actually only a rather weak indication it could be, if you're (un)lucky.
And unless you embark in your generated world you don't know if the dwarven civ is dead or struggling, as logic doesn't apply to civ survival.

[Random_Dragon]

Exactly. It's hard to them apart at first glance, but the differences are enough that expecting one and getting the other can be Fun. XP

[burned]

@burned: The way I read your post was that the message implied you had a dead civ, and for the last year or so it has been a common mistake to fail to realize there is a significant game play difference between dead and dying, with a number of people quite insistently claim civs that exhibit the dying traits are in fact dead based on the (logical but incorrect) conclusion that since no dwarf had existed for the last 1000 years and the civ haven't had any non dwarven members either, the civ must be dead as a door nail. I didn't want Afghani84 to get the impression that the message meant a civ was truly dead, as it's actually only a rather weak indication it could be, if you're (un)lucky.
And unless you embark in your generated world you don't know if the dwarven civ is dead or struggling, as logic doesn't apply to civ survival.

I got lost in that response. Are you saying I am still misinformed (because I don't see it AND want to!) or that you assumed I was misinformed because others have been?

I posted after checking the legends xml dump of this particular world in order to answer Afghani84's question.

[PatrikLundell]

@burned: Sorry, I'm not trying to pick a fight. You're obviously aware of the differences between a dead and a dying civ, but I'm afraid you might not have a correct picture of the signs that indicate what you'll get. If you repeat a legends mode export of a struggling civ, you'll find it will also be listed as a Fallen Civ by Legends Viewer (i.e. a listing here just means you'll get the "dead or dying" message on embark). So far I've found no indicator apart from embarking and looking at the civ screen to distinguish between a dead and a dying civ. I thought, for instance, that Legends Mode reporting the goblins being at war with a fallen dwarven civ was a sign the civ was in fact just struggling, but I've recently found at least two cases where the civ was actually dead. I've looked at a number of Legends Viewer things to try to make a distinction, only to find that each candidate can be present for both a dead and a struggling civ. Currently I'm just embarking, looking at the civ screen, and only then turn to Legends info to look for other stuff I'm after.

[Afghani84]

holy...I have to say I am quite surprised at the verocity of the argument that I ensued 

just to extend on what exactly I have in mind:
i want to create a smaller (33*33) world with 5 civs (since they are equally distributed, one of them has to be dwarven) and the dwarven one wiped out during worldgen.
to make it happen, I usually increase the number of megabeasts and titans for some extra FUN. If the "world_sites_and_pops" text file (pressing 'p' after worldgen) shows no dwarves, I assume the dwarven civ is dead. LegendsViewer also shows it as "fallen".

If I understand correctly, a dying civ cannot be distinguished from a dead civ before you check ingame. That puzzles me somewhat...so even if "world_sites_and_pops" as well as LegendsViewer shows no surviving dwarves, some are still hidden somewhere? Excuse my logic but "every dwarf is dead = civ dead", at least in my book. I'm aware that DF logic might absolutely disagree with me here...

As for the differences: a dying one will provide unlimited migrant waves, caravans with liaisons etc. A dead dwarven civ means only 2 hardcoded migrant waves and no caravans before the winter. Has anyone tried whether it is doable to create a big fortress (150+ dwarves) with just two waves and many many kids?
Also, if my civ is dead, would one of my grand-grand-grand-kids be appointed monarch once the fortress hits a certain threshold?


thanks for all of your answers! it seems like they have only sparked further questions though haha...

[FantasticDorf]

Another rapid fire question for you toady. 

> Now that materials are more accountable for their material properties post-armor nerf, are there any plans to use this to forward (as detailed by threetoes stories) a way of chemical warfare by bringing vials and other potentially breakable containers into the domain of [TOOLS] (therefore additional modding support) rather than hardcoded objects (giving players moddability for advanced concepts like very crude fuse lit and comically heavy and large iron hand grenades/barrels that explode and because they are wood, splinter outwards/shrapnel)

A bit suggestiony, but a adventurer could take account of a particularly corrosive/flammable substance such as a cave blob's substance, scoop it up in the item then throw at the floor/target to shatter and release/load it as a ammo type into a specially made crossbow to deliver to the target OR catch some smoke/compounds to create smoke to load into a tiny handheld bomb to reduce visibility and sneak away

TL;DR : with future mods and a ability to load fire snake extract directly into a weapon

[Fleeting Frames]

Excuse my logic but "every dwarf is dead = civ dead", at least in my book. I'm aware that DF logic might absolutely disagree with me here...

Maybe the community's parlance for this may not be most intuitive for what you'd expect "dead" or "dying" to mean from the perspective of IRL, but given the message has been there for years it is natural to use it's distinctive words when distinguishing between a civ that gets early monarch and 3+ migrant waves and one who is limited to just two waves.

I'm not sure what it takes to kill a dwarf civilization, tbh.