Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sheb]

In those cases I think it's more that they converted because the violent ideology of Islamist extremism appealed to them.

Yeah, it struck me after writing that it's possible that the converts who turned to terrorism were specifically attracted by that. It should be a testable proposition though, anyone feels like digging a bit in their life history?

[Starver]

The difference is probably the same as with the evangelical Born Again Christians being far more fervent and 'cultishly inclined' than your regular Joe Shmo adherent who is just a regular guy who has always gone to church, but practically indistinguishable from the neighbour who doesn't, save for a slightly different social scene on Sundays.

Of course there's also probably equivalents to the more cultish Christian communities, but they tend to keep to themselves, and don't tend to relocate en-mass into the heathen lands (missionaries aside) and make their presence more obvious than than some would like.

The post-resettlement rebound into fervency by the offspring also depends on the availability of cultural reappropriation. Hard to compare with historic waves. The Pilgrim Fathers were self-exiling themselves and their beliefs, as a badly summarised example. And even in cases of colonisations that had not brought very definite views with them, their children and children's children would not have had the same near-instantaneous communications from the Old Country pressures to reconform to any baser belief from which the more open parent-settlers had drifted, out of inclination, inspiration and/or necessiry.


It's not an Islamic thing. It may be more obviously one due to the relative youth of Islam, in cultural terms (Christianity has largely gotten over its prosthelytising phase, Judaism doesn't really 'do' recruitment at all (Kabbalah aside), I don't know too much about Hinduism/Sikhism/etc, and there's issues with conflicting cultures there of course, but one can probably put them in the 'ancient and stable' camp. Buddhism and other popular targets for New Age spiritualities has its stable and ancient core and the potentially 'problem child' offshoots into conflicting cultures, but being mirrored by the contemporary Christian missionary excursions into China, and especially the House Churches (protestant) and Underground Churches (catholic) as separate from the state-sanctioned portals for each separate belief (protestantism and catholicism being considered very different from each other, over there, I understand, though not to sectarian levels).

[Neonivek]

While likely more stereotype than truth, British police have a reputation of superior integrity and restraint compared to their US counterparts. For many years, they refused to carry firearms at all, I understand.

It should also be said that an American Police officer is well aware of a danger that a perp poses even after you fire.

There HAVE been instances where officers have been trained to keep shooting their target until the target is down.

Which isn't a bad thing mind you... People seem to have unrealistic ideals on how police should act in a fire fight (There is a reason why even Canadian police don't have standing shooting to disable orders)

[scriver]

It has absolutely nothing do to with the "age" of the religion and everything to do with current trends of ideology within the religion - that is, violent, oppressive, and expansionist salafism fueled by Saudi ambitions of power.

[Sheb]

It has absolutely nothing do to with the "age" of the religion and everything to do with current trends of ideology within the religion - that is, violent, oppressive, and expansionist salafism fueled by Saudi ambitions of power.

That.

[Starver]

It has absolutely nothing do to with the "age" of the religion and everything to do with current trends of ideology within the religion - that is, violent, oppressive, and expansionist salafism fueled by Saudi ambitions of power.

You argue against something I didn't say, assuming that it is me you're arguing against.

And as the trends of the ideology are at least partially due to still being a young religion, not yet sufficiently reconciled to its own equivalent to the Reformation and all the associated argy-bargy, it is indeed something to do with its adolescence. Though, as a middle-aged man can brawl even where a youth can stay out of trouble, it's not 1-to-1 truism, just "more obviously" the case, as the child-prodigy hot-housed with its semitic family's intellectual prowess (that arguably kept the sanity whilst older sibling Christianity went through its own troublesome teens) now finds the hormones kicking in, and not all bits of its body maturing at the same pace.  To take the loose analogy well beyond where I originally intended.

And this isn't really a Brexit thing (although I can analogise Brexiteers to moody teens, too, if you want me to!), as splitting from Europe has barely tenable connections with the Islamic world.  There's a Snap Election thread and at least one Railgun thread, depending on where exactly we want to lead this issue.

[ChairmanPoo]

It has absolutely nothing do to with the "age" of the religion and everything to do with current trends of ideology within the religion - that is, violent, oppressive, and expansionist salafism fueled by Saudi ambitions of power.

You argue against something I didn't say, assuming that it is me you're arguing against.

And as the trends of the ideology are at least partially due to still being a young religion, not yet sufficiently reconciled to its own equivalent to the Reformation and all the associated argy-bargy, it is indeed something to do with its adolescence. Though, as a middle-aged man can brawl even where a youth can stay out of trouble, it's not 1-to-1 truism, just "more obviously" the case, as the child-prodigy hot-housed with its semitic family's intellectual prowess (that arguably kept the sanity whilst older sibling Christianity went through its own troublesome teens) now finds the hormones kicking in, and not all bits of its body maturing at the same pace.  To take the loose analogy well beyond where I originally intended.

And this isn't really a Brexit thing (although I can analogise Brexiteers to moody teens, too, if you want me to!), as splitting from Europe has barely tenable connections with the Islamic world.  There's a Snap Election thread and at least one Railgun thread, depending on where exactly we want to lead this issue.

I dont think I understand any of that

[Starver]

Scriver blames (or appears to) Islam's difficulties on the ideologies coming out of the house of Saud (noting that it, and others, blame Qatar), in 'refuting' my casual analogy that it is Islam's "growing pains" that make it the currently most obvious party involved in religious conflict in the present day world*...

I'm saying that it isn't an either/or, and if you see the conflict within the Arab world, as well as from it, as exacerbated by the youthful nature of the religion (compare and contrast with 16th/17thC Europe?) then it isn't even a counter argument.


* - Which is not to say that there aren't other issues that I see mentioned on the world news.

[martinuzz]

It has absolutely nothing do to with the "age" of the religion and everything to do with current trends of ideology within the religion - that is, violent, oppressive, and expansionist salafism fueled by Saudi ambitions of power.

This.
Nothing to do with religion age. Islam is nearly 1400 years old now. They have had plenty of time for reforms and enlightenment, it's just that most of the reforms and enlightenment got massacred by those in power more efficiently then that reforms and enlightenment got massacred by western despots. And the one recent time it looked like islam was going to see an enlightened variant, it was destroyed by the CIA to please Saudi oil partners.

[Sheb]

I dunno, going back to the text, getting rid of corrupt religious elites? Reformation of Islam is what we're seeing now people. 

[scriver]

I'm not sure what you're saying, sheb.

[Sheb]

Protestant reformation: Angry cleric mad at established religious authorities lead a movement to go directly to the text rather than rely on interpretation, cause conflict killing thousands.

Sounds pretty similar to Salafists :p.

[ChairmanPoo]

Not the first time this happens with Islam. IIRC they have a long history of angry clerics wanting to go back to the roots when the contemporary establishment has become too decadent/laicist for their tastes

[Urist McScoopbeard]

It has absolutely nothing do to with the "age" of the religion and everything to do with current trends of ideology within the religion - that is, violent, oppressive, and expansionist salafism fueled by Saudi ambitions of power.

I'd like to point out that (since Christianity and Islam are fundamentally pretty similar) at the equivalent time in Christianity's development, it was about as violent as Islam is right now, sooo... It might be an age thing. 14th/15th centuries Christianity was pretty fuckin' brutal if you'll recall.

[Sheb]

It has absolutely nothing do to with the "age" of the religion and everything to do with current trends of ideology within the religion - that is, violent, oppressive, and expansionist salafism fueled by Saudi ambitions of power.

I'd like to point out that (since Christianity and Islam are fundamentally pretty similar) at the equivalent time in Christianity's development, it was about as violent as Islam is right now, sooo... It might be an age thing. 14th/15th centuries Christianity was pretty fuckin' brutal if you'll recall.

I really don't get how anyone could think that this religious age thing isn't garbage. Religions aren't people, they don't follow predestined path of growing, aging and dying along a certain timescale. Christianity was fucking brutal for much of its existence because humans were fucking brutal for most of our existence. Islam today is tame by historical standards, it's only violent compared to the Islam of the last century, where stuff like communisms and the like were all the rage in the muslim world and giving a non-religious outlet to violent people.

I mean, rather than just try to copy-paste our knowledge of Christiandom's history onto the Muslim world, maybe we should actually try to learn some fucking Islamic history if we want to pretend it makes sense.