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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 191889 times)

Ghills

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1590 on: May 05, 2017, 07:51:42 pm »

Related to the language question: for all that people complain about learning English because of the exceptions to grammatical rules and spelling, it's vastly easier to become basically functional in English than it is in Chinese unless you're already speaking a related language.

China has never really cared about what other lands thought of them so long as they were open to trade and/or conquering as the whim struck. For all people complain about American exceptionalism and arrogance, China can really take it to the next level.  Also, China's huge. Geographically it's enormous, and population wise it's roughly 1/7th of the earth.  I really doubt they're going to start worrying about projecting cultural power and getting actively, almost obnoxiously, involved in international politics like the US did post-WWII.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1591 on: May 05, 2017, 08:01:35 pm »

Frankly the language that seems impossible to learn... is Japanese

Since even the Japanese can't read Japanese :P
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1592 on: May 05, 2017, 08:28:45 pm »

That's the whole point, though. You'll never attain that final level of national significance, where your theaters of activity are the whole planet and your nation's interests are a circle containing the entire human race, unless you engage in all forms of power. Military and economic might are not enough without external cultural and diplomatic power such as was held by the USSR and is held by the USA.

China is a global power right now, and they'll probably solidify that position some more. But until they shake the insular behavior, that's as far as the "Chinese Century" will ever go.

Or so I predict. Maybe something even weirder will happen and throw us all on our heads, but PRC dominance in the conventional sense is something I feel fairly convinced will not be in the future.
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martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1593 on: May 06, 2017, 02:59:12 am »

Frankly the language that seems impossible to learn... is Japanese

Since even the Japanese can't read Japanese :P
Apparently Japanese is one of the easier Asian languages to learn, for a westerner. Very logical grammar with relatively little exceptions.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1594 on: May 06, 2017, 03:05:47 am »

Very logical grammar with relatively little exceptions.

Well... sort of... kind of...

The exceptions are usually names... that and the language is full of words that are written the exact same way (Hominems? Synonyms?)
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martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1595 on: May 06, 2017, 04:24:55 am »

Very logical grammar with relatively little exceptions.

Well... sort of... kind of...

The exceptions are usually names... that and the language is full of words that are written the exact same way (Hominems? Synonyms?)
Homonym is what you're looking for
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1596 on: May 06, 2017, 05:29:02 am »

Apparently Japanese is one of the easier Asian languages to learn, for a westerner. Very logical grammar with relatively few exceptions.
FTFY :P
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scriver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1597 on: May 06, 2017, 06:52:18 am »

Yeah other germanic languages never achieved the proliferation of English. Maybe in the future?

The point I was trying to make is that a conqueror using it's language throughout it's conquered territory does not a lingua franca make, so Spainiards making people in the Spanish Empire talk Spanish does not count.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1598 on: May 06, 2017, 07:16:04 am »

You missed the part about it still being the second most-used trade language. 

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1599 on: May 06, 2017, 08:17:12 am »

I think China also has another problem. They're not that great at exporting soft power. Sure, their skill at leveraging economic dominance is pretty good, but they're an incredibly insular culture compared to Spain, France, Britain, or America. China's external culture power is honestly pretty low, and I'm not sure they have the societal values to grow it unless there are major changes. Without that, could it truly claim geopolitical dominance? And if Chinese economic growth does stagnate, what do they have left if there's not high culture power?
While China itself is poor at exporting cultural capital, its people have many historical links with countries across the world, old and new, both from before and after it went from being all under the sky to just another nation amongst nations. The North Americas, South Americas, Europe, SE Asia, S Asia and a great deal of North and South Africa can boast communities of various Chinese cultures, continually boosted by China's high rate of emigration, students, workers and businessmen. Thus while it does not boast the big brands and influences of French fashions and American superstars, there is a preexisting international network of culturally similar communities that diffuses Chinese cultural exports. The Chinese government also does fund projects to export its culture, most notably with the Confucius institute, but I haven't seen that be as successful yet as its relative counterparts in the USA or Europe. Very much a WIP, to quote an Indonesian, ancient China is awesome, but modern China sucks

There's also another issue. The age of colonialism permitted the forceful spread of Spanish, French, and English all over the world.
Also notably was that within the respective European Empires, not only were schools set up teaching those languages, but as trade within respective European Empires was until the turn of the 19th-20th centuries, conducted within Empires exclusively, no other languages could compete

Mandarin both is of an entirely different language family and uses a different written form, not even just a different alphabet. It was way easier for Spanish, French, and English dominance to pass between one another than it would be for it to pass from English to Mandarin.
It wouldn't be too hard, especially given China's standardization of language and pinyin, well, at least not harder than learning foreign languages already is. I imagine the greatest difficulty is in the sheer difference of grammar, with sentence structure and one verb form acting as all forms of that verb without conjugation for example being the immediate challenge. More than that though, is that languages like English have been the language of two consecutive world hegemons, whose languages have been taken up by shed loads of people. This creates a large, fluid network, which in turn encourages more people to take up the language. Anyone who learns English may never need to nor wish to visit an English speaking country, it will be sufficient to be able to speak with 2nd language English speakers, of whom vastly outnumber native English speakers and are spread on a vastly larger scale across the world. To use an example of the past, I once had a sensible chuckle reading an account of an English prince who, having learned French, tried speaking with a French diplomat in his own tongue. However, his accent was so incomprehensible, that they simply spoke in Latin instead. English is this bastard hydra that outgrew the control of the USA 40 years ago and the UK 100 years before them, now there are many Englishes all across the world. In the future, I find it is more likely for English to become a family group of languages, than for "THE" English language to be replaced

inb4 future communication is interpreted not with language, but ironic dance routines and minimalist cave paint memes

smjjames

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1600 on: May 06, 2017, 08:32:52 am »

Yep, it's the fate of all languages that get dispersed over a wide area to diverge from the origional.
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wierd

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1601 on: May 06, 2017, 08:49:19 am »

Trust me, that is a MAJOR accomplishment!

Then again, we dont have near the same density of govt monitored CCTV cameras per square meter that you guys do. You guys are following 1984 like an instruction manual more closely that we are!
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1602 on: May 06, 2017, 09:34:53 am »

  In the future, I find it is more likely for English to become a family group of languages, than for "THE" English language to be replaced
 

I think this is true of all widely distributed languages. Heck, even in the Iberian Peninsula, it's hard enough to understand people from the far south.


For that matter, it doesn't even take widely spoken languages: I recall this nurse I had in my first workplace. She was very fluent in Basque, and was also very insistent that I should at least try to speak to Basque-speaking patients in Basque (sometimes I tried, with mixed results), as apparently she found my cultural alienation as her personal mission.

Anyway, up came this patient, from deep in the mountains. After trying several times in Spanish, and a few more in my rudimentary Basque, to no avail (and some funny misunderstandings), I called my nurse for help. And, after berating me for not exploiting this chance to further practice the tongue of my ancestors, she walked into the room.... only to find that she couldn't understand him either.   You see, my nurse spoke"Batua", which is basically a consensus grammar composed by parts of the major Basque dialects, and is what you're actually taught in school. This guy, however, was from some remote village in the Pyrinees, and spoke an obscure Basque dialect which was near-unintelligible to her.

TL, DR: you can see large divergences even in minority languages.
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scriver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1603 on: May 06, 2017, 11:22:22 am »

There's this often overseen "dialect of Swedish" in a place called Älvdalen (Elf Valley, fittingly, or perhaps just River Valley,  which is probably much more likely yet so much less romantic) which is only called a dialect out of national linguistic nonsense. In reality it is almost completely incomprehensible to Swedish speakers and is supposedly the language most alike ancient Norse still spoken today, even closer than Icelandic.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1604 on: May 06, 2017, 11:34:53 am »

Kind of funny that for a while I thought those "Secure chat programs" were overzealous protection.

Then again to my knowledge the UK already had this power to spy on private chats of its citizens. I guess this is more a requirement for IP providers to give a better avenue?
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