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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 191973 times)

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1080 on: January 20, 2017, 04:46:35 am »

hrm. I think nowadays people seem anxious to find an excuse to get offended.  TBH I saw that stuff about the WW2 guards and didnt' glance twice.  It's just a lame comment, come on, it's not like he invaded poland or anything

He's supposed to be Britain's diplomat-in-chief. Not insulting people at random is like, Diplomacy 101.
That's part 1 of Diplomacy 101. Acting like you're not insulted even when you feel like you're being insulted is part 2 of Diplomacy 101. Back in the days, diplomats often had to venture to lands full of people able to kill them with impunity, and being able to act dignified in the face of perceived slights was a pretty important skill. Most of the times, those weren't even intentional, but rather a product of cultural differences, like in this case.

Not really, acting like you're insulted when you don't really give a fuck can be a great too to gain a morale advantage.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1081 on: January 20, 2017, 05:34:02 am »

So the EU account for an absolute majority of imports and something like 47% of
I made a thing to illustrate clearly the data behind my point
As time has moved on Europe has grown less and less important for the UK and more and more restrictive. Still very important, but not as important as the Americas, BRICS and the Commonwealth - there is simply more opportunities abroad, much larger export markets abroad than in Europe, whose economic growth has been much slower (or in the case of the Med nations, horrendous). Meanwhile the EU nations have increased their share in the British market and with external tariffs as they are, have much reduced competition with our older trading partners, actively making it so that we cannot choose the most efficient and qualitative products and services over the most european products and services. The benefit to British exporters to European markets does not outweigh the twofold cost of Europe's protectionism and the simple fact that we can't negotiate trade deals with our trading partners and the EU has failed to allow us to do so on our own behalf, leading to an obvious question: Why are we better off trading with lesser prospects than with older allies and richer prospects? If we can't negotiate trade deals that take advantage of the Anglosphere, the developing world and the Commonwealth we are terribly wasting the opportunities available to us, abandoning the majority of our trading opportunities to protect European industries that give little to us in service or capital. We're kinda getting fucked by such a system - notably, this system stops being beneficial to the UK after the 08 crash and the eurozone crisis. In review, unchecked derivative trading and a rigid European market had the consequence of the Europeans learned the value of sovereignty once more and European growth stopped being so pleasant.
Our average yearly growth and export rate respectively to the EU was 2.54 and -0.71 whilst for the world it was 1.07 and 5.04, the UK's future is with the world. Maybe this gives hopes to European federalists such as yourself, in that the UK was an anomaly that did not fit within the European Union's model, whilst the rest of the nation states within the EU only have credit and trade deficit issues to surmount?

Ok, so it's only around 50% if you average the last years. Not that surprising given that the EU only account for 15-20% of world GDP. Still, it's by far your bigger trading partner and unless you guys fuck up Brexit immensely will remain so, even if its importance will diminish as the rest of the world grow richer.

First, it doesn't, and I do not rejoice in the EU being able to artificially support European industries in British markets through protectionism. Second, you're looking at the tariff rate for Electronic integrated circuits and trying to suggest that's representative of the European Union, not sure if an honest mistake or just dogeposting.
There is enough overlap between BRICS, America and Commonwealth that I'm too lazy to try to come up with that exact figure, but given that trade with the EU accounts for almost 50%, that would mean that the share of your trade with the world outside BRICS/Americas/Commonwealth (including much of SE asia, Japan, Korea, the Arab World...) account for less than a few percents of your total trade.

As for the electronics, it was an answer to your (unsourced, unfounded) complain that British business were forced to buy more expensive German components because of the terrible EU.

No, seriously, the EU is less protectionist than most major economies.

Ah, you're doing it again. Using tariff rates on manufactured products to represent the entirety of the European Union - manufactured goods are one of the EU's most liberalized industries.

Manufactured goods tend to be the bulk of trade. Agricultural products are tiny in comparison. Services like finances are bigger for the UK, but with them the probelm is usually more regulatory than tariffs. Anywau, I was playing with different indicators trying to decide which to post, I think I made a mistake, because I wanted to post this one for average tariffs, which shows us being one of the best tied with the US instead of overall less protective.


Quote
/snip, because it's a pain to read in the response window

I don't necessarily disagree on some of those but generally: A) Those tariffs are quite small by international standards, the EU is hardly the protectionist monster you make it seems to be. B) It's not clear the UK outside the EU will turns out to be a champion of free-trade. The people that voted to "take back control" probably won't be happy to sign stuff like TTIP (after all, regulatory barriers are much more significants than the tariffs in the low single digits). Lower tarifss on food is very well, but will May be willing to take on the National Farmer Union?

Quote from: Ok, just one more thing
You may find this report interesting, it was used by our gov and they came to the conclusion that in spite of its flaws, EU membership was worthwhile for as long as the UK was able to push reform through the EU, particularly in regards to non-tariff external barriers and the services sector. This was also before David Cameron renegotiated with the EU and returned to the UK with none of the reforms he requested. They also set the costs of exporting to the EU using a weighted average for the Common External Tariff + Admin costs at 8.7%, excluding any effect from EU subsidizing European companies - thus you can see why the UK is particularly concerned about the EU controlling who is allowed to import to it, whilst in France the sentiment is quite in the opposite direction, and in Germany, very popular.

I'm amazed by our ability to read the same sentences and understand them differently. When I read this:

Quote from: summary section of the report
This note considers the impact of EU membership on trade and
consequent welfare effects.

Trade is a key driver of growth, and the reduction of barriers to trade
between Member States would be expected to result in increased trade
and growth. Straightforward high-level observations show an initial
boost from accession to the UK’s trade with the EU as a share of GDP.
However, the impact later on is less obvious, particularly following the
Single Market reforms, where one would expect to observe an increase
in intra-EU trade. Given data constraints and other influencing factors,
it is hard to develop an accurate counterfactual to see what would have
happened to trade had the UK not become a member of the EU. Using
Norway and Switzerland as comparators is also problematic. Instead,
econometric examination of the observable impact of EU membership
shows a significant and positive impact on the UK’s trade – membership
initially boosted UK trade with the EU by 7%, outweighing trade
diversion. The Single Market was seen to boost intra-EU trade by a
further 9% (although this may be an under-estimate).

Further benefits are also likely from reduced trade barriers that would
not be observed looking at trade flows. The threat of greater
competition in a more contestable market impacts firm behaviour, and
there is evidence of reduced price-cost margins following the Single
Market reforms. There is also evidence of some price convergence
between Member States.

However, barriers to trade still remain, in particular in services sectors,
and the EU’s protection of agriculture is also damaging. This implies
that there are still greater trade benefits to be reaped from EU
membership if the UK remains a force for reform in the Union.

I read "the EU is good for the UK and could become even better if they rip service trade barriers", not "the EU is good if we can get reforms done" as you seems to.

(BTW, I didn't read the FT article because paywall, I assume it was about aluminum like the Euractiv one?)

Edit: Sorry, I fucked up my quotes.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 08:18:23 am by Sheb »
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Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1082 on: January 20, 2017, 08:10:10 am »

That's part 1 of Diplomacy 101. Acting like you're not insulted even when you feel like you're being insulted is part 2 of Diplomacy 101. Back in the days, diplomats often had to venture to lands full of people able to kill them with impunity, and being able to act dignified in the face of perceived slights was a pretty important skill. Most of the times, those weren't even intentional, but rather a product of cultural differences, like in this case.
Not really, acting like you're insulted when you don't really give a fuck can be a great too to gain a morale advantage.
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It's also a great way to force yourself into disaster

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1083 on: January 20, 2017, 08:53:28 am »

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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Baffler

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1084 on: January 20, 2017, 12:33:02 pm »

Nigel Farage signed with Fox news as an analyst, they announced it during the inauguration. He starts tomorrow. It seems like a step down from his previous position tbh.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 12:44:19 pm by Baffler »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1085 on: January 20, 2017, 01:13:31 pm »

President Farage 2024

Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1086 on: January 20, 2017, 03:03:55 pm »

Nigel Farage signed with Fox news as an analyst, they announced it during the inauguration. He starts tomorrow. It seems like a step down from his previous position tbh.

You kidding it sounds like the perfect job for him.

I mean heck it was what he did the majority of the time at his old job.

In fact Fox should give him his own Glenn Beck-esk spot. I'd love a crossover but to my knowledge Glenn Beck doesn't have his show anymore.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 03:08:28 pm by Neonivek »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1087 on: January 20, 2017, 03:28:49 pm »

I wanna see Piers Morgan vs Nigel Farage prime time American arena

Sergarr

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1088 on: January 24, 2017, 04:57:18 am »

While technically not Brexit related, I guess there's no better thread to discuss Britain news: Queen's chaplain resigns over cathedral Koran reading row saying he has a 'duty' to defend Christianity, here's the recording of his interview with BBC.

Quote
During a service at St Mary's Episcopal in Glasgow earlier this month to mark the feast of the Epiphany, there was a reading of a passage from the Koran which said that Jesus was not the son of God.
When someone tries to claim that the central tenet of your faith is wrong, in your church, on your holy day, it's an example of not tolerance, but rather, an attack aiming to subjugate your religion and make it subservient to theirs. What the fuck is this shit?
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Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1089 on: January 24, 2017, 05:20:26 am »

I can't bother to listen to the recording, but yeah, I'd feel pretty insulted if they brought that up during Eucharist without more context or stuff. Although, frankly, it's that Church's business how they do things.
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martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1090 on: January 24, 2017, 05:20:59 am »

Supreme Court confirmed earlier judges' ruling: Brexit will have to go through parliament. This is gonna make a hard Brexit as May wants it a bit harder (to achieve). Although it is expected that a majority can be found in favour of going through with the article 50 procedure, it is expected that May will need to tone down on what she said earlier, or she will have trouble finding a majority approval. Technically it is even possible that this means no Brexit, if there's a sudden change of heart (or a sudden change of parliament). That's not in the line of expectations though.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 05:22:33 am by martinuzz »
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We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1091 on: January 24, 2017, 05:24:00 am »

While technically not Brexit related, I guess there's no better thread to discuss Britain news: Queen's chaplain resigns over cathedral Koran reading row saying he has a 'duty' to defend Christianity, here's the recording of his interview with BBC.

Quote
During a service at St Mary's Episcopal in Glasgow earlier this month to mark the feast of the Epiphany, there was a reading of a passage from the Koran which said that Jesus was not the son of God.
When someone tries to claim that the central tenet of your faith is wrong, in your church, on your holy day, it's an example of not tolerance, but rather, an attack aiming to subjugate your religion and make it subservient to theirs. What the fuck is this shit?
As an atheist who cares little for faiths, I can still feel this being inappropriate and a hostile thing to do.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1092 on: January 24, 2017, 07:10:03 am »

While technically not Brexit related, I guess there's no better thread to discuss Britain news: Queen's chaplain resigns over cathedral Koran reading row saying he has a 'duty' to defend Christianity, here's the recording of his interview with BBC.

Quote
During a service at St Mary's Episcopal in Glasgow earlier this month to mark the feast of the Epiphany, there was a reading of a passage from the Koran which said that Jesus was not the son of God.
When someone tries to claim that the central tenet of your faith is wrong, in your church, on your holy day, it's an example of not tolerance, but rather, an attack aiming to subjugate your religion and make it subservient to theirs. What the fuck is this shit?
As an atheist who cares little for faiths, I can still feel this being inappropriate and a hostile thing to do.

To be fair, they were invited by the priest, and presumably checked the text with him beforehand (I mean, you don't improvise the Eucharist). I wonder what the text was, was it an explicit thing, or just a text with Jesus that refers to him as "Prophet Jesus", because, well that's the way it is.* If it was an explicit thing, I wonder what the hell is wrong with that priest, but then, Anglicanism.

That Aschend fellow also seems tog o at the deep end. "Dr Ashenden wrote a letter to The Times newspaper earlier this week, where he called on the church to apologise to Christians “suffering dreadful persecution at the hands of Muslims”". Seriously? Remember kids, when you're nice to a muslim, ISIS kills a Christian Baby!

*But not enough to listen to the whole recording, because I got nice work to do.
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hector13

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1093 on: January 24, 2017, 11:40:18 am »

I would suggest it's a lack of due diligence on the cathedral's part. They've done it before, and it was only because of the choice of text this time that it has become a problem.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1094 on: January 24, 2017, 11:50:37 am »

It is worth bringing attention to it. However, suggesting that they need to apologize to them, as if their action were somehow the cause of the plight of middle-eastern Christian is ridiculous. As for the rest, others account of the incident don't mention the reading taking place during the Eucharist. If that's the case... I don't really care? I mean, you can read the chapter of Maryam there yourself. Sure, it disagrees with the Bible in that it says that the boy sent by God to the Virgin Mary is not His son, but apart from that, it's strikingly similar. Seeing and hearing this kind of stuff is interesting methink.

Now, you can think that allowing people to say thing you disagree with is selling out on stuff you claim to belief. Then I suggest you don't attend that one Church and/or complain to your priest, but why make a huge fuss? It's tiring to see people trying to get offendred on other's behalf for crappy stuff, whether from the left or the right.

Hector13: "Asked if he had known what the Koran verse specifically said about Jesus, Mr Holdsworth declined to comment further." Yeah, it seems he didn't do his proper homework too. I mean, I don't really mind reading of other texts that contradicts but the priest should give proper context and that seems like he didn't do his homework. Or maybe he did and just don't want to get into details with the journalist, but again, I don't feel like listening to the whole thing. Also, it seems the chapter was read in Arabic, which is nice and all, but doesn't seem great for interfaith dialogue, at the very least read it in both English and Arabic or something. Again, that priest needs to work a tad on his organization it seems.

Edit: There is a nice blog post by the provost about the whole thing. Seems like it was nice, and the liturgy was well done. Frankly it just look like they do this semi-regularly, and it just went viral when some right-winger noticed some Christians like to dialogue with their muslims neighbours. Then word of mouth and distortion sent everyone in a frenzy. I mean, you can think that readings from other holy text have no place in mass, but others find it interesting (we never had that particular case, but our priest regularly tells us of the point of views of the various religions of the books during his preaches) and you should get out of their churches.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 12:11:14 pm by Sheb »
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.
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