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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 191981 times)

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1020 on: January 15, 2017, 06:06:35 am »

Does that mean it's okay if we extradite the 2 million Turks and Moroccans whose grandparents came to work in the factories in the 60s?
Also Belgium, if you can do that to an Italian, why haven't you deported the entire district of Molenbeek to the Sahara yet?

They're Belgian citizens.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1021 on: January 15, 2017, 06:08:27 am »

Does that mean it's okay if we extradite the 2 million Turks and Moroccans whose grandparents came to work in the factories in the 60s?
Also Belgium, if you can do that to an Italian, why haven't you deported the entire district of Molenbeek to the Sahara yet?

They're Belgian citizens.

Belgian? But that is a non-country!

At least that is what Nigel says.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1022 on: January 15, 2017, 11:13:16 am »

Belgian? But that is a non-country!
At least that is what Nigel says.
Thank you for this insightful and witty addition to the discussion

Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1023 on: January 15, 2017, 02:02:55 pm »

Belgian? But that is a non-country!
At least that is what Nigel says.
Thank you for this insightful and witty addition to the discussion

Remember Nigel "IS" one of the faces of Brexit and has control over a portion of the UK.

I might joke, but it is highly relevant to understanding the political environment surrounding it. That her issues with citizenship might not be met with sympathy.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 02:09:52 pm by Neonivek »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1024 on: January 15, 2017, 05:46:40 pm »

Remember Nigel "IS" one of the faces of Brexit and has control over a portion of the UK.
Wow, you actually thought I forgot who are based Nige was o_O
That's like trying to remind democrats that Obama is their face. However unlike Obama, Nigel has never had control over a portion of the UK. You may not be aware, but political control of the country is firmly in the hands of the Conservatives, Labour and various Celtic Nationalist parties. Nigel has never held any form of control in the UK (not for lack of trying mind you, it's simply the case that our electoral system presents a difficult challenge for parties like UKIP), and is not even leader of UKIP anymore. I don't even know what a face of Brexit is, that is a vapid statement that doesn't really mean much ~o.O~

I might joke, but it is highly relevant to understanding the political environment surrounding it. That her issues with citizenship might not be met with sympathy.
You might joke, yet where is the joke? All you did was make a an out of context reference in substitution of humour.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Belgium is a non-country, that is a joke. For the brief centuries in which Belgium has existed it has been accepted and the brunt of jokes for not being a real country, Belgium is a state, but not a nation - thus, all nation-states ridicule it. There is no such thing as a "Belgian," rather Belgians are Flems, Walloons, Germans and Arabs. The Flems in the north, the Walloons in the south, the Germans in the east and the Arabs in the cities, the whole thing is an artificial state constructed as a buffer state between France, the Netherlands and Germany whose sole existence renders it a meme country.

"Il n'y a pas de Belges," said the Walloon politician Jules Destree in 1912. Belgium is a state created to serve the purposes of Empires that don't even exist anymore, to what extent it could even be said to be a state is debatable.

That wasn't his joke however.
Quote
Nigel Farage to President van Rompuy: You have the charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk. And the question that I want to ask, that we're all going to ask, is who are you?
I've never heard of you. Nobody in Europe's ever heard of you.
I would like to ask you President, who voted for you? And what mechanism? Oh I know democracy is not popular with you lot.
And what mechanism do the people of Europe have to remove you? Is this European democracy? Well I, well I said so, that you're competent, and capable, and dangerous, and I have no doubt that it's your intention to be the quiet assassin of European democracy and of the European nation states. You appear to have a loathing for the very concept of the existence of nation states, perhaps that is because you come from Belgium, which of course, is pretty much, a non-country. But since you've took over, we've seen Greece reduced to nothing more than a protectorate, sir, you have no legitimacy in this job at all, and I can say with confidence, that I can speak on behalf of the majority of the British people in saying; we don't know you, we don't want you, and the sooner you're put out to grass - the better.
This was in the European parliament and was sparked by the appointment of Herman van Rompuy to President of the European Council unanimously in a secret meeting at Brussels. Nigel Farage makes fun of the fact that nobody knows who van Rompuy is and the fact that he looks like a low-grade bank clerk, which is probably because he rose to power after working in the Belgian central bank, yet in spite of this was now in charge of directing the political agenda for an entire continent of peoples. The main crux of the issue is that secret meetings do not a President make, and its ridiculous to have unelected Presidents appointed in secret meetings by elite councils supposedly representing democratic nation states, hence why he's the quiet assassin working to take away sovereignty from democracy.

As a reward for destroying so much of Europe he was well compensated, his money persisting long after he stopped doing anything. It is symbolic really that Greece, the cradle of Western civilization and democracy, is now today synonymous with destitution, decay and hegemony.

To understand the political environment as to why her citizenship issues are not met with block-headed sympathy, it's because there is little to nothing to sympathize with. What's wrong with her life? Is she poor? No, she's a cambridge grad software engineer born into the world with oil money. Is she alone? Nope, happily married and her kids have already spread their wings well into the world. Is she being deported from her home? Nope, her fear is she'll have to wait in a longer queue at the airport, a fear that isn't even founded.
How did she land in such a devastating dilemma? She never applied in the entirety of her 23 years stay in the only place she calls home for citizenship. I would have more sympathy if she was not already so wealthy and well-connected that even an MP is working on her behalf to sort out the shitfest of bureaucracy normal people deal with without recourse. Her issues also have nothing to do with Belgium, she is from the Netherlands, which is a real country.

Sheb is referring to a different case regarding how Belgium obviously can't deport Belgian citizens, because you can't deport your own citizens unless you're Stalin or have a penal colony. I'm pretty certain both Stalin and penal colonies no longer exist.

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1025 on: January 15, 2017, 06:24:00 pm »


I might joke, but it is highly relevant to understanding the political environment surrounding it. That her issues with citizenship might not be met with sympathy.
You might joke, yet where is the joke? All you did was make a an out of context reference in substitution of humour.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Belgium is a non-country, that is a joke. For the brief centuries in which Belgium has existed it has been accepted and the brunt of jokes for not being a real country, Belgium is a state, but not a nation - thus, all nation-states ridicule it. There is no such thing as a "Belgian," rather Belgians are Flems, Walloons, Germans and Arabs. The Flems in the north, the Walloons in the south, the Germans in the east and the Arabs in the cities, the whole thing is an artificial state constructed as a buffer state between France, the Netherlands and Germany whose sole existence renders it a meme country.

"Il n'y a pas de Belges," said the Walloon politician Jules Destree in 1912. Belgium is a state created to serve the purposes of Empires that don't even exist anymore, to what extent it could even be said to be a state is debatable.

That wasn't his joke however.

Well, Destrée was a Walloon nationalist, so it's hardly surprising. It also date from right before WWI, which was really the start of both a Belgian consciousness, and paradoxically of the raise of the Flemish movement. Nothing temper a people like a big war. As for waloons, the fun fact is that the Walloon movement kinda flopped, the party that my great-grandfather founded is now only present in a few communes around Brussels. Walloons nowadays think of themselves as Belgians, despite being the minority in the country.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1026 on: January 15, 2017, 06:51:02 pm »

Well... maybe citizenship is particularly hard to obtain. Let me check the requirements for a moment

*Checks*

WOW!!! Ok... Ignoring the unfair stuff that doesn't apply.

Also dear goodness!

So she needs to pass two tests (a test any UK citizen can pass, and another that a typical UK citizen won't). Practice tests are only available at the test center and only can be done the day of the test apperantly.

Uhh... let me see... She is from Belgium. So she isn't going to pass the English test immediately (likely)... I think Belgium doesn't have a requirement so she can apply for citizenship in 12 months instead of 5 years (DEAR STUPID GOODNESS Official government website... I am confused)... However that is only if she has the right papers for that and it is something she has to apply for.

And uhhh... goodness...

Ok so... so far she has to do two tests and write out at least two forms and wait for a response.

I just know that just from the amount of loops involved in citizenship... That there must be agencies dedicated JUST to helping you with this citizenship thing.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 06:53:29 pm by Neonivek »
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Baffler

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1027 on: January 15, 2017, 07:18:03 pm »

Considering her profession and how long she's been in the UK she had damn well better be able to pass an English test, and if the actual civics test is anything like this practice test, she'll probably be fine. You only need a 75% to pass, and I managed to only miss two (15 and 20) while knowing basically nothing about modern British politics.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 07:20:05 pm by Baffler »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1028 on: January 15, 2017, 07:48:28 pm »

Well, Destrée was a Walloon nationalist, so it's hardly surprising. It also date from right before WWI, which was really the start of both a Belgian consciousness, and paradoxically of the raise of the Flemish movement. Nothing temper a people like a big war. As for waloons, the fun fact is that the Walloon movement kinda flopped, the party that my great-grandfather founded is now only present in a few communes around Brussels. Walloons nowadays think of themselves as Belgians, despite being the minority in the country.

As Europe was growing together with the euro and open borders, Belgium was drifting apart, cleaved between the wealthier, trade-intensive north and the more rural, industrially outdated French-speaking south, known as Wallonia. Six overhauls of the constitution since 1970 gradually gave the Flemings more control of their affairs.
Now that the European Union’s unifying achievements are under threat, there is even less glue to hold Belgium together. Flemish government chief Geert Bourgeois, one of De Wever’s right-hand men, spoke in a Jan. 16 De Standaard interview of a “two-country country.”
That's great, but don't grow complacent. In the UK one day everyone was British and the next politicians were campaigning for secession, these things change dramatically quickly and constantly require adaptation or else things fall apart :P
Spain is another great example. All of them were Spanish but now they are Catalonians and other Spaniards

Considering her profession and how long she's been in the UK she had damn well better be able to pass an English test, and if the actual civics test is anything like this practice test, she'll probably be fine. You only need a 75% to pass, and I managed to only miss two (15 and 20) while knowing basically nothing about modern British politics.
I got 20/24, I didn't know that magistrates worked unpaid, don't know how EU driving law works, got the patron saint of Wales wrong and haven't read much of Jane Austen. Almost got the holidays in November question wrong until I remembered to remember remember, the 5th of November. This is all stuff you'd know from reading the papers, going to a British school or spending 3 years pub quizzing in Leeds

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1029 on: January 15, 2017, 08:39:31 pm »

17/24 with no studying, now I'll never be able to illegally order a knighthood over the darkweb.
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1030 on: January 15, 2017, 09:22:37 pm »

this practice test,
The second attempt1, what I got wrong:

A silly error, but I thought "The main political parties actively look for members" was false.  (I was comparing with the US system of wanting to register the 'brand' of voter when the voter registers to be a voter.  Really, major parties find memberships more of a problem, IMO, than anything else.  Big donors (businessmen/unions/etc) fill their coffers, and see what a fuss Labour has had...)

I thought the "textile and engineering" question was a trick one. Pakistan wasn't yet a country at the end of WW2, and I knew of Canadians who came over as engineers, so I chose that.


...and that's all I got wrong, it seems.



PS: I would additionally ask  How do you spell "center/centre", "through"/"thru", "ur"/"your", "you're"/"your" and "anglicisation"/"anglicization".  That would fail more Brits (and Yanks that I wouldn't worry about) than the kind of immigrants I would judge as worthwhile.

1 Three questions in, the first time, it took a scrolling touch as an answering touch, and refresh to give me a legotimate clean sheet gave me different starting questions. Not sure if it just re-ordered them.  The original first three featured later in the new set, so probably.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 09:24:48 pm by Starver »
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smjjames

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1031 on: January 15, 2017, 09:35:36 pm »

So she lived in the UK for 30 years and feels it is the only place she can call home, but didn't even bother to apply for citizenship. My sympathies are not very hearty.

I see irony here. Change the womans nationality from Dutch to Mexican and bam, you have the same sort of illegal immigrant problem here in the US. Well, not exactly the same, but it's the same 'not applying for citizenship and staying illegally'.
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Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1032 on: January 16, 2017, 04:55:08 am »


As Europe was growing together with the euro and open borders, Belgium was drifting apart, cleaved between the wealthier, trade-intensive north and the more rural, industrially outdated French-speaking south, known as Wallonia. Six overhauls of the constitution since 1970 gradually gave the Flemings more control of their affairs.
Now that the European Union’s unifying achievements are under threat, there is even less glue to hold Belgium together. Flemish government chief Geert Bourgeois, one of De Wever’s right-hand men, spoke in a Jan. 16 De Standaard interview of a “two-country country.”
That's great, but don't grow complacent. In the UK one day everyone was British and the next politicians were campaigning for secession, these things change dramatically quickly and constantly require adaptation or else things fall apart :P
Spain is another great example. All of them were Spanish but now they are Catalonians and other Spaniards


Don't get me wrong, the country IS falling apart. The Flemish separatists know that there is no support for independence yet in Flanders so they refuse to call for a referendum, but in the meantime they're pursuing a highly effective tactic of making country an ineffective mess so that independence look better. Hell, I find myself wishing for a split so we can have sane institutions sometimes.
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martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1033 on: January 16, 2017, 04:59:52 am »

So she lived in the UK for 30 years and feels it is the only place she can call home, but didn't even bother to apply for citizenship. My sympathies are not very hearty.

I see irony here. Change the womans nationality from Dutch to Mexican and bam, you have the same sort of illegal immigrant problem here in the US. Well, not exactly the same, but it's the same 'not applying for citizenship and staying illegally'.
No it isn't. EU residents could always stay legally without citizenship. There was absolutely no need to apply for it, because Schengen.
It'd be more like if Hawaii would suddenly declare independance, and all US citizens would have to leave because they don't have Hawaiian citizenship.
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1034 on: January 16, 2017, 06:10:23 am »

Don't get me wrong, the country IS falling apart. The Flemish separatists know that there is no support for independence yet in Flanders so they refuse to call for a referendum, but in the meantime they're pursuing a highly effective tactic of making country an ineffective mess so that independence look better. Hell, I find myself wishing for a split so we can have sane institutions sometimes.
Flanders is being cloyingly nice about it all, but that's just annoying Homer even more...

(Don't look at me like thaf, the chances are that you were thinking the same...  :))
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