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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 193014 times)

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1005 on: January 11, 2017, 12:02:38 pm »

But then, wouldn't Hameron calling the EU referendum a perfect exemple of the system working as intended? He didn't want to do it, but he anyway gave the option to the Brits to decide: the system gave him incentives to do the democratic thing.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1006 on: January 11, 2017, 12:41:10 pm »

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the minimal amount of effort you put into your posts

I could pretty it up with sugar and honey but it would still end up the same. Do you really want my school writing style?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1007 on: January 11, 2017, 06:58:50 pm »

But then, wouldn't Hameron calling the EU referendum a perfect exemple of the system working as intended? He didn't want to do it, but he anyway gave the option to the Brits to decide: the system gave him incentives to do the democratic thing.
You could certainly make an argument for that, though that will not make liberals any happier that UKIP were able to take advantage of such a perfect system without an inkling of power to their name. My argument rests on that Cameron's decision process was that he only chose to conduct the referendum because back then all the scientific prediction models guaranteed his victory, which is why it was not democratic, and he believed that the event of a Brexit would invite disaster and destroy much of the world; the one time leaders are completely justified in exercising their executive power without any mandate is the simple case of survival.

It is very confusing why giving a referendum could occur would invite any criticism whatsoever amongst Remain and Leave (not now, but back then, before the result), but it was only recently that elections were made to occur on fixed timetables. Previously the Prime Minister could simply wait for/engineer the conditions to ensure their victory and then call an election to guarantee victory, thus the British have hefty skepticism with Prime Ministers calling important elections on their whims - inevitably, they call them in such times as to guarantee victory, as they always have done. No politician calls for a referendum when they believe they're unpopular :]

Would rather like to suggest the unprecedented situation was brought up 'cause of populist politics from UKIP, which forced Cameron to say he was going to do the referendum in the first place for fear of splitting the conservative vote. I do agree that he wouldn't have called for it if he didn't think he was going to win, but he also wouldn't have called it if he really didn't have to. He didn't necessarily do it for his own career, but to eliminate issues that would threaten the Tories in the election.
Quite right, my point was both - he promised the referendum because he believed he would win, and he called it because he believed without the promise he would lose the GE. Lose the GE, he'd have to resign, career over. UKIP just took advantage of this, they won't be the last the longer we keep this system

Cammy then - though this is my biased speculation - refused to plan for a potential Leave vote 'cause he was intending all along to quit if he lost.
I agree yeah, seeing the empty victor's lobby of the Remain camp so early in the morning was a sight to behold. Also I suppose from a practical point of view, he wasn't an impartial leader - he wanted Remain to win. If he came up with a functional plan for Leave, that would increase the chance of Leave winning. His whole campaign rested on Leave being scary unknown, thus to make a known plan would be self-defeating

As an aside: are diplomats/other civil servants considered politicians?
Nope. But there's more to it, because they're brought up a lot in the same context and scrutiny. I suppose it's worth bringing up judges, officers and intelligence officials too. The way I understand it is that politicians propose legislation which becomes policy or law. So for example, foreign policy is going to be enforced by a mix of diplomats, military officers, civil servants and police officers. Proposed legislation gets turned into law by judges, law enforcement officers and civil servants. Ideally, and as part of their job, all the officers, civil servants and judges are supposed to be impartial, loyal to country and not allow political partisanship to take hold (and indeed, not to take part in politics). In most all cases civil servants, judges, officers, officials and so on all occupy incredibly vital roles and thus must be selected by merit and not by public, and cannot be removed on a whim - they will make unpopular decisions in carrying out their duties, and the continuity and experience their permanency provides is of high value. It also inevitably makes them powerful, which is why political neutrality is so important - MPs can't just get rid of them if they disagree, but this is only good on the basis that all the various unelected leaders are not forcing their own agenda through. Scrambled Clegg and Hameron were the vanguard to ending impartiality, I don't think they made much headway.
I suppose my tl;dr is that a civil servant who is a politician had no integrity, because as long as they retain their impartiality then they're doing their job. I suppose this also ties into general skepticism and scrutiny of whitehall mandarins, as naturally people are suspicious of the permanent bureaucrats; MPs come and go, they're always there, thus have many opportunities to abuse their influence if left unchecked.

Based purely on the letter from Sir Ivan, he seemed to be a dude who took the job seriously. I don't think the U.K. is going to be able to negotiate the terms of its exit from the EU and a trade deal in two years. It took Canada six years to negotiate its trade deal with the EU, and that's without having to unravel 40 years of politics at the same time.
That's cos the EU's useless at negotiations; I'm unconcerned, trade requires no trade deal. I'm more concerned for nations like Kenya, Nigeria and South Africa, they could potentially be screwed in the times to come, with falling export prices, potentially lower British demand and the EU restricting their trade with Europe without the UK to serve as their access point. I did not consider their export markets before all this

I also have to disagree with your assertion the SNP are populist :p but, again, I'm biased like that. They did win a majority in the Scottish parliament in a system designed to make majorities difficult to achieve. They also received the most votes in both the seat and list votes in the last Scottish election.
I'm using the definition of populist to mean someone who wants to represent ordinary people, SNP use a lot of that rhetoric in their speeches and particularly emphasize how Labour stopped being populist

It may be too early to say if their Westminster romp was a populist thing or that Scotland thinks that the  British parties don't have a clue wtf Scotland wants from politics. The EU referendum makes me think/hope it's the former.
I'd be more concerned that the Scots don't see themselves as a part of the British

I could pretty it up with sugar and honey but it would still end up the same. Do you really want my school writing style?
Anything of substance regardless of style would be appreciated, less sugar and honey, more ham

martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1008 on: January 14, 2017, 05:14:24 pm »

Dutch journalist Jet Cooper, who has lived in the UK for 30 years, is married to a Brit, and raised 3 (now adult) children there, received a letter from State Secretary of immigration Robert Goodwill, suggesting her to leave the country in anticipation of the Brexit, because 'she has no private heatlh insurance and does not earn enough money'.
She has responded furiously, and, with her husband being terminally ill, will not leave.

She had applied for permanent residence immediatly after the Brexit referendum, which is now mandatory only for immigrants from non-EU countries.

The accusation of 'not paying private health insurance' is subject to debate. Contrary to other EU states, the UK does not have premium insurance, but rather healthcare costs are paid from public means. Brits do pay something called 'National Insurance'. Cooper pays this as well. According to the EU commission, this is a health insurance, but according to the UK, it is not. The UK has found it to be a convenient means of denying residence. A trial on whether it can be considered health insurance or not is still ongoing in Luxemburg.

In a reaction to the Cooper case, the ministry of foreign affairs has said that "ms. Cooper can most certainly stay until the Brexit. What happens after that is completely unclear".
It appears that rights of EU residents are going to be used as ammunition in the Brexit negotiations

Ms. Cooper isn't the only EU citizen living in the UK being confronted with letters of goodbye, now please go away from the State Secretary. It is a nightmare that 3 million people living in the UK will have to live.
The Brits themselves aren't proud of it either. Actor Simon West said "this is disgusting. What kind of horrible nation are we turning into?"
Former leader of the Greens, Natalie Bennett says "these tactics by Theresa May are undefendable".

inb4 the British national anthem becomes "ausländer rauss, England für die Englander! Heil Frau May"
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 05:17:05 pm by martinuzz »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1009 on: January 14, 2017, 05:22:43 pm »

Brexit's legal process is like one of those lint rollers. It just gets all sorts of stuff stuck to it, and only more as it goes on.
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hector13

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1010 on: January 14, 2017, 05:40:26 pm »

I was under the impression national insurance in the U.K. was used mostly to fund the general welfare state... part of which is health. It does come from wages though, so I guess technically it's a tax.

Not really sure what the point is. Maybe the Tories don't care about the Brits living and working in the rest of Europe who will be bearing the brunt of this, 'cause the EU is going to do exactly the same to them as whatever the U.K. does to the yooros in t'uk.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1011 on: January 14, 2017, 07:20:34 pm »

inb4 the British national anthem becomes "ausländer rauss, England für die Englander! Heil Frau May"
Europeans deporting asylum seekers is enlightened, pragmatic and progressive, Britons deporting white immigrants is German, Nazi and literal Hitler

Are Europeans really so arrogant that they believe themselves above British law, when living in Britain? As it stands now Europeans have been privileged above everyone else, even above Commonwealth citizens who have had family members in the UK for generations. Now you're not yet even in the same immigrant boat as us and I see such furor - brex your privilege mates; negotiations will probably cement European privileges for time to come and still all this crying. Makes me considerably more sympathetic to activists trying to stop the Dutch from having a policed border

I was under the impression national insurance in the U.K. was used mostly to fund the general welfare state... part of which is health. It does come from wages though, so I guess technically it's a tax.
It's legally a tax

Not really sure what the point is.
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Hawkins, who is a software developer and the daughter of a former oil company executive, lived in several countries as a child and says the UK is the only place she feels she can call home. She studied maths at Cambridge University and settled in the UK in 1992. She lives in Surrey and has two children, aged 15 and 17. “I always used to feel I had no roots. Because of my dad’s background we used to move every five years. This is the first time I’ve laid down roots,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
Sad violins at oil money Oxbridge elite having to do paperwork now. Rootless whites are unused to being treated like immigrants, they always want to be treated like expatriates where their money and media connections are above the law. Now you have to deal with the same shit bureaucracy we all live with ahahaha

Maybe the Tories don't care about the Brits living and working in the rest of Europe who will be bearing the brunt of this, 'cause the EU is going to do exactly the same to them as whatever the U.K. does to the yooros in t'uk.
Nah, you're just running off of biased and unsourced information so you got put on the ruse cruise
Most are gonna stay, but May's not gonna pledge that in order to secure reciprocal rights for British citizens. If May pledged to give all EU migrants amnesty then the EU would just deport all Britons whilst EU migrants stay here, this way in negotiations reciprocal rights can be secured, cos if the EU deports all Brits, then all EU migrants are deported.

scriver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1012 on: January 14, 2017, 07:31:21 pm »

If she is married to a Brit, can't she just apply for citizenship-by-marriage?
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redwallzyl

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1013 on: January 14, 2017, 07:34:20 pm »

has Britain realized how dumb an idea this was yet? or should i come back in a few more months?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1014 on: January 14, 2017, 07:48:02 pm »

If she is married to a Brit, can't she just apply for citizenship-by-marriage?
She could if she was here on permanent residency or indefinite leave to remain, but she stayed the whole time without applying for any of that or British citizenship, so the whole last minute scramble works against her favour

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Hawkins had considered applying for citizenship before but decided not to as it did not confer any rights beyond her current EU rights. However, after the referendum she changed her mind, fearful that those rights would be diminished after Britain leaves the EU.
Very last minute scramble

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European citizens marrying Britons do not automatically qualify for UK citizenship under current rules and Hawkins was concerned that if she did not apply she would be forced “to join a US-style two-hour immigration queue” while the rest of her family “sail through the UK passport lane”.
Speaking from personal experience, this is not the case

Moreover the whole thing is a misrepresentation from the Guardian
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However, the department not only rejected her application but sent her a letter which took no account of her right to be in the country irrespective of their decision. “As you appear to have no alternative basis of stay in the United Kingdom you should now make arrangements to leave,” the letter said.
The Home Office is not sending letters to Europeans telling them to gtfo, she failed the process to apply for permanent residency which for everyone else means they have to gtfo. It's a basic template they send because they process hundreds of thousands of immigrants, Home Office couldn't deport her if they wanted, and they clearly don't. Why they haven't bothered to make a template for European applicants? I don't know, bureaucrats are often the best and brightest of us all, i.e., very tired, overworked and after the first thousand applicants stop caring about life. It is of great amusement to see only one year ago the Guardian mocking those who criticized bureaucrats now rushing to defend against the dazzling competency of bureaucrats. Karmic justice is swift and blind
It's worth stressing too that the UK has not suspended her right to stay but hey, who cares about facts >_>

scriver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1015 on: January 14, 2017, 08:05:13 pm »

So she lived in the UK for 30 years and feels it is the only place she can call home, but didn't even bother to apply for citizenship. My sympathies are not very hearty.
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hector13

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1016 on: January 14, 2017, 08:23:03 pm »

Yooros are were allowed to love and work in any country in the EU.

Applying for citizenship is stressful, expensive, and time-consuming, and is a bit pointless when you don't have to.
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scriver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1017 on: January 14, 2017, 09:18:19 pm »

No, not if you feel that a place is the only home you've got.
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Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1018 on: January 15, 2017, 05:56:42 am »

It's not entirely pointless : there is a limited scope for deporting EU citizens if they are a drain on your social system : we had a case in Belgium a couple year ago where Italians that had come in the 60's to work in the coal mine and are now pensioners were told to get out.  That case is pretty much the reason my dad finally decided to grab a Belgian citizenship.
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martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1019 on: January 15, 2017, 05:59:59 am »

Does that mean it's okay if we extradite the 2 million Turks and Moroccans whose grandparents came to work in the factories in the 60s?
Also Belgium, if you can do that to an Italian, why haven't you deported the entire district of Molenbeek to the Sahara yet?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 06:02:40 am by martinuzz »
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