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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 191888 times)

Frumple

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #180 on: July 01, 2016, 10:58:07 am »

Anyways, I could try to do another news round-up tonight if you want. Not now, work break's almost over, but if people are actually reading these/helped by it I wouldn't mind doing it from time to time.
Wouldn't be objected to, methinks. I've been reading over the posts, if only occasionally actually following the links, heh.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #181 on: July 01, 2016, 11:06:32 am »

Anyways, I could try to do another news round-up tonight if you want. Not now, work break's almost over, but if people are actually reading these/helped by it I wouldn't mind doing it from time to time.
Wouldn't be objected to, methinks. I've been reading over the posts, if only occasionally actually following the links, heh.
That would be okay.
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palsch

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #182 on: July 01, 2016, 11:10:33 am »

How'd that work out? Though I guess screwing your country over by a sixth is better than a third? Again assuming the VAT is/was actually screwing the country over. Not sure I'd agree with that assumption, m'self, but it seems to be the one folks railing about the thing are making.

There have been plenty of tax reforms at the same time, a couple progressive and from the Lib Dem manifesto (eg, £10,000 income tax allowance, increasing over time) and lots less so. Pinning down the impact of VAT changes is hard.

I'm personally not a fan due to the regressive nature of VAT (hits those who spend a higher percentage of their income harder proportionally speaking) and would love to see the EU lower the VAT requirements. I can't imagine leaving would actually lower it in the UK though, and the existence of EU controls only mattered in, well, the one case of tampons.

I might try to summarise the Conservative leadership race later (the Labour challenge looks on hold for the moment) but need an extended break first.

And by break I mean beer.
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mainiac

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #183 on: July 01, 2016, 01:18:58 pm »

The VAT is regressive but it's used to fund progressive social spending.  Seems like a fair bargain to me.  The VAT is hardest on the poor but the NHS is most important for the poor.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 01:21:11 pm by mainiac »
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BFEL

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #184 on: July 01, 2016, 02:52:49 pm »

What I don't get is this thing about fewer languages and shit.  I'm already a little wary of the idea of "societal integration" but suggesting languages can go away in pursuit of it just reinforces my belief that globalism also means atomization and consumerist non-culture.
I don't see how having people be able to understand each other reinforces atomization; in fact, it seems to me that it would do the exact opposite of that. As to "consumerist non-culture", I have no idea what you're talking about. Modern America, probably the most consumerist society in the world by any reasonable definition of that word, is not lacking in culture - indeed, it seems to me like it's getting more and more cultural with every passing year, thanks to Internet allowing the small sub-cultures to proliferate..
There's a character in the novel 1984 whos entire job is to shorten and simplify words of the local language. This is done so that the masses who use the new language will have less complex thoughts and thus be more accepting of the dystopian culture forced upon them. Pretty allegorical I'll admit, but the point stands.
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Sergarr

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #185 on: July 01, 2016, 03:20:56 pm »

What I don't get is this thing about fewer languages and shit.  I'm already a little wary of the idea of "societal integration" but suggesting languages can go away in pursuit of it just reinforces my belief that globalism also means atomization and consumerist non-culture.
I don't see how having people be able to understand each other reinforces atomization; in fact, it seems to me that it would do the exact opposite of that. As to "consumerist non-culture", I have no idea what you're talking about. Modern America, probably the most consumerist society in the world by any reasonable definition of that word, is not lacking in culture - indeed, it seems to me like it's getting more and more cultural with every passing year, thanks to Internet allowing the small sub-cultures to proliferate..
There's a character in the novel 1984 whos entire job is to shorten and simplify words of the local language. This is done so that the masses who use the new language will have less complex thoughts and thus be more accepting of the dystopian culture forced upon them. Pretty allegorical I'll admit, but the point stands.
What point, that the evil societies do evil things, including language manipulation? What does that point have anything to do with the cause of social, economical and technological progress being easier to achieve with unified common language (i.e. English)?

I'm not saying that everyone must necessarily use the same variant of English language - indeed, diversification of language is a major part of societal progress - but having the same language as a base would vastly increase the speed and intensity of communication between various nations, and simplify their unification into one global society, capable of achieving better things than they could've achieved separately.

Anyway, I've voiced the language thing as my opinion. It may not be actually true. In fact, given the speed of current technological development in AI, machine translation and voice recognition, we may relatively soon (i.e. within 30 years) have the ability to translate spoken language on-the-fly, making language barriers irrelevant.
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mainiac

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #186 on: July 01, 2016, 04:03:09 pm »

but having the same language as a base would vastly increase the speed and intensity of communication between various nations, and simplify their unification into one global society, capable of achieving better things than they could've achieved separately.



And in reference to what you were saying before.

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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Sonlirain

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #187 on: July 01, 2016, 04:15:00 pm »

Why is everyone thinking the EU is cultural genocide?
I'm quite sure even if borders were abolished and a superstate was created in their place people would still keep their culture and language. Poles in the "polish" province would speak polish germans would speak german.
At worst people would become mostly bilingual... but isn't it the case even here and now?

Look at the USA. There are chinese districts, polish districts all put in a different culture and yet somehow existing.
Heck the same thing goes for canada. Part of the country speaks french and i didn't see the destruction of french over there as some sort of priority.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #188 on: July 01, 2016, 04:31:44 pm »

Both of those places have an overculture, however. It's not cultural genocide, but it is a loss of cultural sovereignty. How severe that is probably depends on how you look at it.
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scriver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #189 on: July 01, 2016, 04:37:25 pm »

The words used were not "genocide" but "repressing cultural identities". The difference between the two is huge.
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Sonlirain

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #190 on: July 01, 2016, 05:11:41 pm »

The words used were not "genocide" but "repressing cultural identities". The difference between the two is huge.
Not really since both lead (in theory) to a culture disapearing so cultural repressions are essentially long term planned genocide of a culture.
Not it's people but the culture itself obviously.

Of course those were proven in the past to not work because countries like poland and their culture still exist after intense germanization and russification,
Battered for sure but its people still consider themselves as poles rather than Germans and Russians.
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #191 on: July 01, 2016, 06:14:23 pm »

Quote
Wouldn't be objected to, methinks. I've been reading over the posts, if only occasionally actually following the links, heh.
Kay then. I'll try not to do repeats of what was posted here already (some of the major things have been mentioned I think) and give a balanced narrative, but can't guarantee either. And yeah, didn't expect everybody to read the entirety of the articles, which is why I try to add a few paragraphs that give the general idea (when I'm not too lazy or on mobile or feel cheeky and write up something stupid).

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What exactly is the correct course of action in this hypothetical?
In a general, 'what are the requirements for a decent new referendum' sense, or a very detailed 'first X does Y, then depending on the results W or Z follows'?

Quote
If there's anything I've took away from watching this stuff, it's that the only good candidate for a head of government that the UK seems to have right now appears to be Sturgeon. And there's some obvious problems with that option :V
I'm rapidly developing a platonic crush just due to the fact she seems to be on of the very few competent players in this whole charade.



So yeah, first up there's the whole 'betrayal' of Boris Johnson by Gove. Aka more political games at the most opportune of times.

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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36677028
Michael Gove: Boris Johnson wasn't up to the job
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Note the end of the article. I find it interesting that he's basically saying that he's willing to linger with activating article 50, and that he won't immediately invoke it when becoming PM. One the one hand, could be a smart move, making sure they have their shit at least a little in order before moving on. On the other hand, I don't think he'll be generating any goodwill points with his soon to be negotiation partners by keeping them waiting and exacerbating the economical damage stemming from that. The sooner the world knows which relationship the UK and the EU have (provided it's stable) the better for everyone involved, if I understand things correctly.

A more in-depth look into the 'affair': http://reaction.life/boris-done-cuckoo-nest-plot/

But don't despair! It's not just the Tories and Labour that can play ball:
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukips-only-mp-could-be-sacked-by-monday-says-party-leader-nigel-farage-a7114526.html
Ukip's only MP could be sacked by Monday, says party leader Nigel Farage
When asked if Douglass Carswell would be expelled from Ukip following an ongoing row, Mr Farage said: “That will be up to the NEC to decide”
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On to more important news than party politics, it seems one of the biggest issues is (unsurprisingly) the fact that the UK will want to keep access to the common market of the EU when (if?) it leaves the union, but while getting to curtain free movement of people. But the latter is something that's all but written into the DNA of the EU and seems to be a conditio sine qua non.

For example:
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-farage-idUSKCN0ZG0GS
Farage says can envisage Britain contribution to EU budget post-Brexit: Le Figaro
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Then there's this, which wouldn't be doing Britain any favors:
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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222
EU Trade Commissioner: No trade talks until full Brexit
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36684452
Osborne abandons 2020 budget surplus target
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I know this on's been posted before, but I think this basically means that some of the more unpopular measures of the last couple years, such as the austerity, might turn out to have been for nothing, or close to that.

Luckily, it's not all bad news for the Uk! Even if leaving would hurt, it doesn't have to be the end of the world:
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/29/new-zealand-offers-uk-its-top-trade-negotiators-for-post-brexit/
New Zealand has offered its top trade negotiators to the United Kingdom, relieving the British civil service as it prepares for the strain of seeking new deals with countries across the globe.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Then again, not all of the Commonwealth is feeling so magnanimous:
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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36670075
Singapore bank UOB suspends London property loans
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Then again again, this is just one bank.

And more bad business news:
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http://news.sky.com/story/1720169/easyjet-opens-talks-over-post-brexit-hq-move
EasyJet Opens Talks Over Post-Brexit HQ Move
EasyJet's boss has signalled in private meetings this week that moving its legal HQ is "likely" after Brexit, Sky News can reveal.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/29/news/economy/vodafone-uk-brexit/
Brexit: Vodafone says it might leave the U.K.
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There has been a petition that says that "British public opposes a second referendum by almost 2 to 1"
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Less than a week after the public narrowly voted to leave the European Union, many remain supporters have called upon the government to hold a second referendum with stricter conditions. The petition calling for this, which is the most popular ever, has been signed by over four million people.

The latest research from YouGov/Channel 5 shows, however, that most British people (58%) oppose holding a second referendum. This includes not only 91% of Leave voters, but also 29% of Remain voters. 11% don't know.

Even in an extreme situation, such as the break up of the United Kingdom, most people (51%) still oppose holding a second referendum. In the event of Scottish independence, only 30% of people would support holding a second referendum.

By the by, something I forgot to mention earlier but saw someone wondering about: a couple days after the referendum in an interview someone asked former EU president Van Rompuy why the EU didn't have a more active voice during the campaign, to which he said the UK had basically asked them to stay out of it, it's a private affair.

Also, there's a rather interesting article that condemns the cries right now by some that the referendum was wrong and the leave voters were stupid (sorry, 'low information'). Don't agree with all of the points he raises (or at the very least, would like to nuance things) but worth a read/skim at least.


Finally, the funnies:

Boris Johnson's HQ as the EU referendum result comes in.
(Aka one of those 'Downfall (Der Untergang)' Hitler reacts vids, starring our beloved Boris as the mustachiod miracle himself. I laughed, for what it's worth.)

"We’ve gained exclusive access to a leaked plan that was put together by the Vote Leave campaign, the UKIP, and Nigel Farage. It includes detailed solutions for the following political and economic issues expected after the United Kingdom departs the European Union."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/students-claim-they-too-depressed-brexit-to-do-exams-gcse-a-levels-vote-referendum-a7111796.html
Dunno if I should laugh with this one, but hey, It's not like I don't understand them. Any excuse is good not to have to study, exams be damned!

"I do sometimes wonder what Justice Secretary Michael Gove feels about his wife's Daily Mail column..."


Pounded by the pound: Brexit inspires its first erotic novel

Finally, this little gem from the man who owns some of (or quite a lot of?) the pro-brexit media:
However, an old quote has re-emerged in an Anthony Hilton column for Thursday's Evening Standard, which may give you pause for thought as to how you vote in the EU referendum:

I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'
Wait, shit, that wasn't funny, but infuriating.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 06:16:43 pm by Radio Controlled »
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #192 on: July 01, 2016, 06:44:38 pm »

The VAT is regressive but it's used to fund progressive social spending.  Seems like a fair bargain to me.  The VAT is hardest on the poor but the NHS is most important for the poor.
Taxes (almost) all go into one pot and spending takes from that pot without regard of what microcosm of taxation funded it. Although the chancellor is saying "and I shall fund the new pet-health service from the funds obtained by implementing pay-and-display at all official permissive dogging sites", its just a "see, we'll have this much more money to spend, but we estimate we'll have a similar amount from this other initiative" type of thing.

The NHS (noting that it's fairly obvious that its being disingenuously forced to 'overspend' and self-imolate, rather than actually be funded to the level it should be, for decades now) needs funding to help the poor, but the poor don't need to be targetted to get that funding.  Now we're (on the way) out of the EU, reduce/remove VAT across a wide swathe of the board and 'match' the funding gap with a revised Income Tax system that also shifts the contribution system further up the bell-curve, perhaps.  Exact details to be left to whoever eventually gets to decide these things. Not that I expect Osbourne ("look what the exit from the EU forced me to do!") his antiEU Tory successor ("Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither can Brussels be demolished") or other party's replacement ("Due to two terms of Tory financial mismanagement, my hands are tied") to do any such thing, but I'm happy to posit it as a vague hypothetical.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 06:52:58 pm by Starver »
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Frumple

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #193 on: July 01, 2016, 07:10:18 pm »

Huh. Saw some interesting figures somewhere else... wondering if someone better acquainted with the UK could confirm. Apparently they have a debt of ~1.5 trillion, with a 3% deficit (I.e. it'll go up by about 45 billion within the next year)... and an estimated impact of tax evasion pegged around 70b. Is this accurate? Could the UK actually completely erase their current deficit (and then some) if they thoroughly enforced their tax laws?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 07:16:21 pm by Frumple »
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #194 on: July 01, 2016, 07:21:37 pm »

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