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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 192032 times)

Radio Controlled

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #645 on: October 11, 2016, 09:30:39 am »

Some developments:

There is an ongoing debate/struggle about what role parliament should play (and of course, what kind of brexit should be pursued):

MPs demand vote on hard Brexit plans for UK to leave single market

Cross-party alliance says it should be consulted over future trade decisions, saying referendum was on EU membership; not single market.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Alternative source: Labour demands parliamentary vote on Theresa May's 'hard Brexit' negotiation plan

MPs will not get to vote on how Brexit negotiations are handled but could still be asked to approve the "final" deal, a government source has said.
Several senior politicians, including ex-Labour leader Ed Miliband, have demanded Parliament gives its verdict on the UK's departure from the EU.
But Brexit Secretary David Davis told MPs there was a difference between "accountability and micro-management".[...]

Here's an overview from The Economist on the state of things I found interesting. A bit lengthy though, fair warning.

And while it might have been a rather minor thing all in all, the proposal of making companies declare how much of their staff is foreign seems to have been shelved: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/09/plan-to-force-firms-to-reveal-foreign-staff-numbers-abandoned

Finally, something unexpected:
Homophobic attacks in UK rose 147% in three months after Brexit vote
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #646 on: October 11, 2016, 10:39:16 am »

Not really seeing how thats unexpected.
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #647 on: October 11, 2016, 10:52:07 am »

Homophobic attacks? What's the link with Brexit?

Plus, telling the Lords that they can't potentially veto Brexit because of democracy and then telling the Commons they can't potentially veto Brexit because of democracy sounds a little contrived to me...
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 10:54:02 am by Starver »
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #648 on: October 11, 2016, 11:13:08 am »

We want Brexit (38% of us), but we don't know what we, collectively, even intended by that.  Norway? Swizerland? Canada? North Korea? United Trump Of America?

The MPs will know what their constiuents thought and thus ensure that what May flagships is what we collectively want from it...
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #649 on: October 11, 2016, 11:46:58 am »

Not really seeing how thats unexpected.

Just because they wanted away from the French doesn't make them homophobic. Not every Frenchman is gay. Stop being such an American.


United Trump Of America?

If the Brits wanted that then they would've just stayed in the EU.
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #650 on: October 11, 2016, 12:25:04 pm »

Quote
Not really seeing how thats unexpected.
Because I can see the link between the referendum result and attacks on foreigners, looking at what a portion of the Leave campaign was about. But attacks on LGBT people? How does that even link to brexit, apart maybe from shitheads in general feeling empowered or a generally more hostile environment?

Quote
Homophobic attacks? What's the link with Brexit?
No idea, but the increase seems rather large to be due to random chance. That's why I find it rather out of the blue.

Quote
Makes sense to me. MPs are elected to serve us and represent us. We, the public, have already voted on the issue directly and come to a decision. MPs then vetoing it seems to completely go against what is supposed to be the reason they exist in the first place.

I think this isn't even about voting on brexit happening or not, and more about what kind of new deal should be pursued. After all, the referendum didn't ask anything about what new relationship the UK should pursue should leave win, even though the exact details would have a large effect on the economy and other areas. Right now, it seems May is saying she'll use the mandate gotten from the ref to pursue the type of brexit she wants without involving parliament.

[rant]Incidentally, another reason why I think this ref was shit: compacting highly complex matter into a binary question. Among other reasons, mind (the fact that the campaigns could promise or claim anything and hardly be accountable being another. How are the people to make an honest, informed choice when it's not even clear what the options entail exactly?)[/rant]
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #651 on: October 11, 2016, 01:19:36 pm »

Take a look at anti-immigration and/or nationalist groups historically, and you will frequently find anti-LGBT behavior bundled in with that.
I don't want to Godwin this, but the best-known example began with an N, and rhymes with Yahtzee.

Look at the right-wing nationalists in Russia, in Hungary, in Poland.

And from what I've seen, most of the Brexit anti-Europe sentiment stems from the Right, not the Left.
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #652 on: October 11, 2016, 03:13:14 pm »

Or a more sarcastic explanation

It is almost like people who hate foreigners for not being like them... hate LGBT people for the same reasons :P
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #653 on: October 11, 2016, 03:21:37 pm »

The nationalist right is anti-EU, yes. The pro-EU side is also rightwing - liberals are, has been, and will still be rightwing tomorrow.

The traditional socialist left has always been anti-EU. As I've said before, a good way to measure how much a social democrat or supposedly "left" political faction has been subverted by neoliberalism is to look at their stance/s on the EU. (On a slightly related note, I'd wager a lot on that the upswing in rightwing nationalism has of cause in the steady slide towards neoliberalism that the "left" has undergone during the last 30-40 years.)

Also, and this is important: the EU and Europe is not interchangeable concepts. Don't treat them as such.
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #654 on: October 11, 2016, 03:26:06 pm »

It's sometimes hard to tell the European right and left apart on the EU issue because they're both arguing for nationalistic solution, or stand in opposition to EU realities but for different reasons.

Generally though, and I can't claim to know a lot of Europeans, but I suspect some in support of the EU would resent being labeled part of the right wing because of it.
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #655 on: October 11, 2016, 03:34:01 pm »

It's sometimes hard to tell the European right and left apart on the EU issue because they're both arguing for nationalistic solution, or stand in opposition to EU realities but for different reasons.

Generally though, and I can't claim to know a lot of Europeans, but I suspect some in support of the EU would resent being labeled part of the right wing because of it.

They would be used to it because they are part of the polarized politics that puts everything left or right.

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #656 on: October 11, 2016, 04:18:58 pm »

The nationalist right is anti-EU, yes. The pro-EU side is also rightwing - liberals are, has been, and will still be rightwing tomorrow.

The traditional socialist left has always been anti-EU. As I've said before, a good way to measure how much a social democrat or supposedly "left" political faction has been subverted by neoliberalism is to look at their stance/s on the EU. (On a slightly related note, I'd wager a lot on that the upswing in rightwing nationalism has of cause in the steady slide towards neoliberalism that the "left" has undergone during the last 30-40 years.)

Also, and this is important: the EU and Europe is not interchangeable concepts. Don't treat them as such.
Yes, socialists can hate the EU too (for being part of the global corporate oligarchy), but they seem a lot less inclined to be all "fuck this, we out bitches" in the way that the Brexit movement was.

In my mind (and before you all start in, I'm aware this is a gross oversimplification) the face of Brexit usually boils down to two people:

1. The stodgy old curmudgeon at the corner pub who believes in Queen and Country and who thinks things were "better in the old days. Why, when I was in the RAF, you never had any of this <fill in blank> poppycock!"
2. The young chav who gleefully sees a chance to give a big "fook yu" to Brussels, Westminster, and society as a whole. The fact that he can go round and lay into Pakis and poofs and get away with it is just icing on the cake.

I can respect and understand #1, even if I disagree with it. #2 is just a blight on humanity, imho.
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #657 on: October 11, 2016, 04:25:43 pm »

I'm not so sure about the point on socialists. The old guard of European socialism has always seemed to me to be very unreasonable and obstructionist, it's just that none of them have attained the kind of sway that UKIP managed in getting the referendum called. Take Die Linke (I know picking the group that literally used to support the Stasi is kind of cheating, but they're still big time) or the Red-Greens.

Ironically, alleged friend of pinkos France has gone the other way and fringes on Front National instead of whatever their hardcore leftist party is.
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #658 on: October 11, 2016, 04:32:19 pm »

Generally though, and I can't claim to know a lot of Europeans, but I suspect some in support of the EU would resent being labeled part of the right wing because of it.

Of course some would, but if you look like a duck, talk like a duck, and is supportive of the biggest duck organisation in Europe, then it's very likely you are in fact part of the duck wing.


The nationalist right is anti-EU, yes. The pro-EU side is also rightwing - liberals are, has been, and will still be rightwing tomorrow.

The traditional socialist left has always been anti-EU. As I've said before, a good way to measure how much a social democrat or supposedly "left" political faction has been subverted by neoliberalism is to look at their stance/s on the EU. (On a slightly related note, I'd wager a lot on that the upswing in rightwing nationalism has of cause in the steady slide towards neoliberalism that the "left" has undergone during the last 30-40 years.)

Also, and this is important: the EU and Europe is not interchangeable concepts. Don't treat them as such.
Yes, socialists can hate the EU too (for being part of the global corporate oligarchy), but they seem a lot less inclined to be all "fuck this, we out bitches" in the way that the Brexit movement was.

In my mind (and before you all start in, I'm aware this is a gross oversimplification) the face of Brexit usually boils down to two people:

1. The stodgy old curmudgeon at the corner pub who believes in Queen and Country and who thinks things were "better in the old days. Why, when I was in the RAF, you never had any of this <fill in blank> poppycock!"
2. The young chav who gleefully sees a chance to give a big "fook yu" to Brussels, Westminster, and society as a whole. The fact that he can go round and lay into Pakis and poofs and get away with it is just icing on the cake.

I can respect and understand #1, even if I disagree with it. #2 is just a blight on humanity, imho.

I am incredibly disappointed in you over this, RedKing. I really thought you of all people would be able to have a more nuanced understanding than something like this.

Besides, the chav denomination is, being younger, much more likely to support the EU :P
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #659 on: October 11, 2016, 06:07:13 pm »

Yes, socialists can hate the EU too (for being part of the global corporate oligarchy), but they seem a lot less inclined to be all "fuck this, we out bitches" in the way that the Brexit movement was.
The international socialist movement is staunchly anti-EU from Jeremy Corbyn to Yanis Varoufakis, they just want to take over the European Union so they can create a giant socialist superpower without rival
Basically they think the institution is a load of horseshit but they wouldn't want to abolish it, rather take it over. This is in line with their thinking that their governments have not been friends to socialism, but they would not dismantle governance but rather take it over. Brexit movement is too broad to generalize, there are too many political movements under that umbrella on whatever political axis you want, I dunno what point you're making there

It's sometimes hard to tell the European right and left apart on the EU issue because they're both arguing for nationalistic solution, or stand in opposition to EU realities but for different reasons.
Generally though, and I can't claim to know a lot of Europeans, but I suspect some in support of the EU would resent being labeled part of the right wing because of it.
There are the socialists and nationalists who think the EU is fundamentally shit and the nation state is the best and not worth wrecking, so they are opposed to the EU and in favour of leaving
There are the socialists who think the EU is shit but not fundamentally so, and so would much rather take it over, being opposed to both the EU and leaving the EU
There are nationalists who think the EU is shit but like it because their countries are poor and they benefit from open migration with Western Europe, being opposed to the EU and leaving the EU

A lot of the times in these cases, the distinguishment between left and right wing parties is worth little here (not entirely worthless, just not entirely useful either), especially because a left wing party in one yurop state is right wing in another

We want Brexit (38% of us), but we don't know what we, collectively, even intended by that.  Norway? Swizerland? Canada? North Korea? United Trump Of America?
The MPs will know what their constiuents thought and thus ensure that what May flagships is what we collectively want from it...
Yeah the pro-EU MPs will listen to their pro-Brexit constituents. That is why they want to stop Brexit. To listen to their pro-Brexit constituents. They know that all those who voted for Brexit really want the EU. They're smartasses like that, fuck that noise, May has it on point

Labour continuing to do everything they can to lose the working class vote, I see.
Also had anyone else completely forgotten Ed Miliband existed? Not that it's hard to do that, given that he's possibly the soggiest man in Britain, but still, it's nice to see him temporarily pop back up out of obscurity to show that sexy face again.
Clegg and Miliband pop up from time to time
Blair still pops around with regular frequency, though he's been hiding because we're all calling him war criminal again
Brown is gone
Other Miliband is gone
Also wtf Nick hosted HIGNFY

Quote
Homophobic attacks? What's the link with Brexit?
No idea, but the increase seems rather large to be due to random chance. That's why I find it rather out of the blue.
Reported allegations have increased, conviction rate remains at 1% for accusations, as collected by LGBT charity Gallup and not police stats
I is sckeptical
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