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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 193243 times)

Helgoland

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1305 on: March 14, 2017, 09:26:26 am »

I dunno. There's quite a few loyalists around, you know.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1306 on: March 14, 2017, 09:45:18 am »

What worries me  (in a disinterested manner) is that its the conservatives driving the process, and seek to get cozy with the Clockwork Orange from the other side of the Atlantic.  I'd advise to be wary, lest they use this whole thing as an excuse to go full neocon on the NHS and labor laws.
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TD1

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1307 on: March 14, 2017, 10:17:04 am »

I dunno. There's quite a few loyalists around, you know.

I'm talking about the referendum vote which means that "some" board sweepers means most voters.

I think Scotland gets that right first :p and Northern Ireland I s'pose.

+1 anyway.

Northern Ireland: After-thought of the nation.  ::)
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1308 on: March 14, 2017, 11:16:22 am »

I dunno. There's quite a few loyalists around, you know.

I'm talking about the referendum vote which means that "some" board sweepers means most voters.
Most votes, assuming you can ascribe distinct motives to marks on paper. Not anywhere near most voters, though.
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Max™

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1309 on: March 14, 2017, 03:45:36 pm »

I never noticed how apt this was after Brexit, but goddamn if it isn't apt as fuck after Brexit: It's shite being Scottish!
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1310 on: March 15, 2017, 11:27:19 am »

I realise that when Wee Jimmy Sturgeon said the initial referendum was a 'once in a lifetime' event she was speaking from a Scottish perspective, and all those deep-fried Mars Bars aren't exactly conducive to a high life expectancy. But what, five years? Things are obviously more dire than I'd expected if that's a lifetime now.
Should they actually ever go independent, I look forward to seeing what great strides they make in funding their own education and healthcare with a ~£15bn deficit.
Nah you're wrong, the referendum was once in a lifetime, but it's a foreverendum thus the first one hasn't ended, and it will keep on going until the sun explodes

Firstly the SNP have a mandate to request a referendum anytime they get elected, it's part and parcel of their platform and why they get elected in the first place. Saying they can't ask for another referendum is saying the 46% or so of Scots who voted for them can't ask for one. Votes are never one and done things, if they were why bother having elections every few years? A referendum is no different in nature.
I agree with you but for timing, before the next general election and before Brexit is done and Scots can clearly see the difference between staying in the UK or going alone and seeking to join the EFTA. England and Wales are in a rather tough spot in that trying to hold a referendum so soon would pretty much grind international business to a standstill whether Scotland remained or not, the Union would be a severe risk. Basically all I'm saying is we've got to get things back to business as usual before campaigning to change the sovereign nature of governance in the UK all over again - Sturgeon was right. These kinds of stuff are once in a lifetime decisions, I really don't think if our dudes lost Brexit we would have seen a second chance in our lifetimes. This is my biggest concern; if we held indyref2 now, there's better chances that no would win over yes. The uncertainty however would spook business peeps into death with a long, drawn out independence campaign after the UK has already endured two such consecutive ones. Thus whether win or lose, the UK would be dead by indyref3

Secondly, circumstances have changed massively with Brexit becoming a thing. It also breaks one of the platforms of the No campaign which was that leaving the UK would take Scotland out of the EU.
Quote
His comments come as Nicola Sturgeon is said to be about to abandon her policy of rejoining the EU immediately after a vote for independence, amid concerns rising Euroscepticism in Scotland could derail her campaign.
A quarter of people who voted for independence in 2014 also voted 'Leave' in last year's EU referendum; that is 400,000 voters Ms Sturgeon cannot afford to lose next time around. This has apparently pushed the SNP to pursue a compromise that they hope will please everyone.
Ayyy lmao Scots are British
I'm also not sure where this promise was made. Was it Cameron? Not being sarcastic mind you, I genuinely don't know, sorry

And it was a pleasure as always to catch Nick Clegg whinging on the evening news. I'll never understand LW's soft spot for him; the man is a walking blancmange.
He inspires such pity as an innocent puppy stranded in the rain

What would NI Protestants have to fear from reunification anyway? They'd be a textbook example of a minority, and the EU is pretty big on protecting those. And since the ROI still is part of Our Glorious Union and thus will, for example, keep abiding by the rulings of the ECHR, that's actually a long-term guarantee.
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If you refuse to do what is required of you as an elected representative, than you shouldn't run for office in the first place.
So, allegiance and affirmation of the Queen... helps elected representatives?
We're a constitutional monarchy, all authority for our officers and officials does not come from the flag, God, constitution or a President, but comes instead from our monarch. It is the civic thread which unites all our politically different individuals together under one nation. In theory anyways. Needless to say, it's difficult to be a Republican and partake in a constitutional monarchy as an elected representative; I've seen some such individuals in the civil service, where the internal contradiction is interesting, but manageable.

I'm just going to put down for posterity that brexit was foolish and stupid and everyone will regret it in the future. I call full i told you so rights when such a time comes.
I regret that we couldn't pull it off sooner

Grim Portent

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1311 on: March 15, 2017, 12:42:22 pm »

I realise that when Wee Jimmy Sturgeon said the initial referendum was a 'once in a lifetime' event she was speaking from a Scottish perspective, and all those deep-fried Mars Bars aren't exactly conducive to a high life expectancy. But what, five years? Things are obviously more dire than I'd expected if that's a lifetime now.
Should they actually ever go independent, I look forward to seeing what great strides they make in funding their own education and healthcare with a ~£15bn deficit.
Nah you're wrong, the referendum was once in a lifetime, but it's a foreverendum thus the first one hasn't ended, and it will keep on going until the sun explodes

As I recall the actual wording was 'once in a generation' anyway, which is roughly 5-10 years, so the timeline fits with her original statement. A few thousand of the people who voted last time are dead now and a few thousand people have since turned 16. As I said before, the SNP get the right to hold one anytime they get the biggest share in Holyrood. Or to be more precise, anytime the majority of MSPs vote for it in Holyrood, because that's how representative democracies work.

Quote
I agree with you but for timing, before the next general election and before Brexit is done and Scots can clearly see the difference between staying in the UK or going alone and seeking to join the EFTA. England and Wales are in a rather tough spot in that trying to hold a referendum so soon would pretty much grind international business to a standstill whether Scotland remained or not, the Union would be a severe risk. Basically all I'm saying is we've got to get things back to business as usual before campaigning to change the sovereign nature of governance in the UK all over again - Sturgeon was right. These kinds of stuff are once in a lifetime decisions, I really don't think if our dudes lost Brexit we would have seen a second chance in our lifetimes. This is my biggest concern; if we held indyref2 now, there's better chances that no would win over yes. The uncertainty however would spook business peeps into death with a long, drawn out independence campaign after the UK has already endured two such consecutive ones. Thus whether win or lose, the UK would be dead by indyref3

But if the Indyref2 happens after Brexit then the entire purpose for doing it, which is for Scotland to avoid Brexit, stops being relevant, as Scotland would then have to apply for EU membership as a non-member, rather than as a sub-member.

Quote
His comments come as Nicola Sturgeon is said to be about to abandon her policy of rejoining the EU immediately after a vote for independence, amid concerns rising Euroscepticism in Scotland could derail her campaign.
A quarter of people who voted for independence in 2014 also voted 'Leave' in last year's EU referendum; that is 400,000 voters Ms Sturgeon cannot afford to lose next time around. This has apparently pushed the SNP to pursue a compromise that they hope will please everyone.
Ayyy lmao Scots are British
I'm also not sure where this promise was made. Was it Cameron? Not being sarcastic mind you, I genuinely don't know, sorry[/quote]

It was one of the official platforms of the NO campaign run by the Conservatives, New Labour and Lib Dems. I do not think it was on the pointless pledge the party leaders signed though, not that that went anywhere anyway.

As is there's a chunk of YES voters who are more self determination focused than the rest, who are anti-EU and anti-UK and want to leave both, with the rest of the movement being focused on the more direct problems that come from UK politics not aligning with Scottish ones more than half the time over the past 40 or so years and feeling the less direct influence the EU has is not a problem, or feeling it's actually a benefit because of freedom of movement, trade, research grants and other funding it gives.
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1312 on: March 15, 2017, 12:44:30 pm »

I feel that about half the UK will Regrexit and half the UK will be filled with Brexitement myself.

Battle lines are drawn and nobody ever admits they were wrong either way these days.
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Pwnzerfaust

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1313 on: March 15, 2017, 12:46:29 pm »

I'm pretty sure that one of the biggest arguments for voting no on the Scottish independence referendum, back when it was run, was that if they went independent, they wouldn't be in the EU anymore. Now that England has shafted Scotland by voting to leave the EU, it seems only right that Scotland should be allowed to choose to remain in the EU as a separate entity.
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Grim Portent

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1314 on: March 15, 2017, 12:49:46 pm »

I do recall Salmond wanted the option of DevoMax on the referendum when he was in charge, but Cameron said no. I wonder if Sturgeon will bother asking for that as well or just stick with the Yes/No choice from before. Not that May would be likely to let us get DevoMax on the ballot, and even if we did vote for it I doubt she'd give it to us.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1315 on: March 15, 2017, 01:02:30 pm »

Election polls for Scottish independence have been kind of horrid, though. Even post-Brexit-May. Can the SNP really afford a second defeat in the referendum?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1316 on: March 15, 2017, 01:12:26 pm »

SNP seems basically invincible anyway, wasn't them gaining all but three MPs after the first vote?
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Grim Portent

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1317 on: March 15, 2017, 01:24:13 pm »

Election polls for Scottish independence have been kind of horrid, though. Even post-Brexit-May. Can the SNP really afford a second defeat in the referendum?

Probably actually, the last one didn't hurt their election results, and as long as they get elected they can still pursue their agenda, and I can't see the Independence movement dropping below 30-40% approval anytime soon, even if it fails again, so it'd just resurge the next time Westminster screws Scotland over.

As is NO has a 6% (+/- depending on poll) or so lead, but last time they had a 30 point lead to start with and lost most of it by polling day, so it's not a great indicator of who would win this far in advance.

SNP seems basically invincible anyway, wasn't them gaining all but three MPs after the first vote?

That is in the Westminster elections though, which are fully FPTP, in the Holyrood elections which use a type of AMV they have just below a majority and work with the Greens a bit. They have the support of roughly 45% of the population, about what Labour and Cons have combined, and have been the leading party in Scotland since the 2007 Scottish elections.
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misko27

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1318 on: March 15, 2017, 01:25:59 pm »

Ultimately, I won't be crying if Scotland leaves, so long as we make it clear we're A) not letting them back in, and B) not paying for their healthcare, defence or education anymore. But I'd be incredibly surprised if Scotland did better outside of the Union than within it, regardless of Brexit. And I'd rather us prosper together.
Haha, now where have we heard this language before?
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Sergarr

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #1319 on: March 15, 2017, 01:30:14 pm »

Ho, the UK is actually getting around to trigger Article 50? Good, very good! The sooner the Union can get the British out of the European system, the better.

Ultimately, I won't be crying if Scotland leaves, so long as we make it clear we're A) not letting them back in, and B) not paying for their healthcare, defence or education anymore. But I'd be incredibly surprised if Scotland did better outside of the Union than within it, regardless of Brexit. And I'd rather us prosper together.
Haha, now where have we heard this language before?
Remain campaign slogans. But the context is very obviously different, seeing as Scotland has been part of UK for much longer than UK has been a part of EU, and it has been much better integrated too, to boot.
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