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[Sappho]

N... not everyone. Pretty regularly see folks acknowledge games they don't like as good, or ones they do as bad. Certainly have often enough m'self.

Also you probably want to re-read what saph was actually writing about puzzles. The thing was a counterargument against the proposition that puzzles with a single solution are mostly lazy design. Not some kind of statement that puzzles with multiple solutions are bad.

This. I didn't say puzzles with only one solution are better, I said that they are harder to design. LoSboccacc said puzzles with only one solution are "lazy design", whereas the opposite is actually true. It is more difficult to design a puzzle with one solution than it is to design a puzzle with many solutions. I know this for a fact because doing so is my job.

Someone came in here asking for game recommendations, and LoSboccacc claimed one of them was "terrible". That suggests the game is badly made in some way. The overwhelming majority of people find those games to be excellent, they're just not what he personally was looking for when he got one of them. And when I say "objectively good," I mean they are well-designed, well-supported, contain no bugs or glitches, the puzzles have a gradual and well-paced difficulty curve which allows for fair and easy learning of the game systems without an overt tutorial while still providing a challenge, the graphics are clean and well-made, the sound is perfectly matched to the game... All of these are objective qualities which can be measured and rated. None of this means that everyone will or even should enjoy the game. But it does mean that when someone makes a nasty post calling the games "terrible" just because of their own opinion (which seems based more on resentment at the game's description than any actual flaw of the game itself), it gets under my fucking skin. It certainly does nothing to help the person who was looking for a recommendation.

And I would say that it is very much in the spirit of the B12 community to make posts clearing up misunderstandings and correcting mistakes using facts and logical arguments, which is all I was trying to do. I made my case for the games not being at all "terrible" and asking someone not to declare games bad (especially when someone is looking for recommendations) just because they're not to their personal taste. He replied by baselessly insulting the designers of one-solution puzzles, a group of which I am a part, and I defended myself and others who do work like mine.

So hell with it. Requesting that people be logical and admit when they've made a mistake is "childish", yet lashing out and calling a game "terrible" and its designers "lazy" just because it's not the game you wanted it to be is not childish? Explaining why it is not at all lazy to make puzzle games with only one solution is "bizarre rambling"? If no one has any patience for trivialities like facts and logic anymore, I'm done. I will not be scolded like a misbehaving teenager for the crime of explaining things logically. There's no point trying to explain myself to those who just want to "be right" regardless of whether or not they're right. Enjoy insulting hardworking developers and declaring your opinions to be facts while dismissing those who try to explain things logically as "childish". You surely have a great future in politics.

[Retropunch]

N... not everyone. Pretty regularly see folks acknowledge games they don't like as good, or ones they do as bad. Certainly have often enough m'self.

Also you probably want to re-read what saph was actually writing about puzzles. The thing was a counterargument against the proposition that puzzles with a single solution are mostly lazy design. Not some kind of statement that puzzles with multiple solutions are bad.

Of course their are exceptions - I'm really not a fan of MOBAs personally but I can understand why people like them and am impressed by the level of strategy and tactics that gets put into them. As I said though, forums are for expressing personal opinion, not that someone is trying to claim that something is objectively good or bad - I know that Sappho knows that, so it just seemed awkward behaviour.

Similarly, I do get what Sappho is trying to say in that it's not always lazy design to have one outcome, but LoS also put in the caveat with the text 'lazy design for the most part' - this is especially true in the context of Hitman. The whole franchise is built around having multiple strategies to attempt a problem, so having only one solution seems like a cop-out/lazy in that context

However, stating things like 'Second, I can see that you've never actually designed a puzzle' or 'It's best not to declare yourself an expert on something you have no experience with and dismiss things you don't like as "bad".' is just not called for, and the tone was the thing that I objected too.

[Retropunch]

N... not everyone. Pretty regularly see folks acknowledge games they don't like as good, or ones they do as bad. Certainly have often enough m'self.

Also you probably want to re-read what saph was actually writing about puzzles. The thing was a counterargument against the proposition that puzzles with a single solution are mostly lazy design. Not some kind of statement that puzzles with multiple solutions are bad.

This. I didn't say puzzles with only one solution are better, I said that they are harder to design. LoSboccacc said puzzles with only one solution are "lazy design", whereas the opposite is actually true. It is more difficult to design a puzzle with one solution than it is to design a puzzle with many solutions. I know this for a fact because doing so is my job.

So hell with it. Requesting that people be logical and admit when they've made a mistake is "childish", yet lashing out and calling a game "terrible" and its designers "lazy" just because it's not the game you wanted it to be is not childish? Explaining why it is not at all lazy to make puzzle games with only one solution is "bizarre rambling"? If no one has any patience for trivialities like facts and logic anymore, I'm done. I will not be scolded like a misbehaving teenager for the crime of explaining things logically. There's no point trying to explain myself to those who just want to "be right" regardless of whether or not they're right. Enjoy insulting hardworking developers and declaring your opinions to be facts while dismissing those who try to explain things logically as "childish". You surely have a great future in politics.

No, LoS did not say that. S/He said that it's lazy design for the most part - and in the context of a Hitman game I'd tend to agree.

Similarly, as I stated in my above post - you weren't just explaining, you were making statements with no grounding: 'Second, I can see that you've never actually designed a puzzle' - you have no way of knowing that. LoS could be the world's foremost puzzle building expert, but you just assumed that as s/he disagreed with you s/he had no knowledge of the area.

You then went on to continually state they were more difficult - I've heard the opposite which is why I found it bizarre. If you've got to make multiple ways of solving something all interesting and challenging, that seems (to my low level of knowledge of the subject) as more difficult. This is again in the medium of game design which is often more tactically or strategically focused, rather than in something like a word puzzle. You didn't provide any facts, just that you knew better.

I don't want to 'be right', and I was also distinctly arguing against the idea of 'opinions as facts'. I didn't mean to scold you, but I didn't feel the way you put across your opinion was the right way as it seemed a bit attack-y.

But come now Sappho, there's really no need to stoop so low as to say I'll work in politics! I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy!

[LoSboccacc]

(removed)

[MasterFancyPants]

You boys sure are getting awful bum befuddled over a bunch of pleb-tier mobile games.

[amjh]

That Pathfinder Adventures game looks pretty interesting. Looking at screenshots makes me suspect it might be designed for tablets only, though...

Any idea if it would work well on a 5.5" phone?

I've been playing it on a phone using a small stylus, and it works fine for me. The UI on it is pretty good, and allows zooming cards up to full screen size if needed.

The game is free to play and everything can be unlocked by playing, but if you like it enough to spend a bit of money unlocking a few extra characters earlyish helps with party building.

[Wiles]

Just thought I'd throw my 2p into the ring about the GO series of games. I only have experience with the Lara Croft entry into the series but I was satisfied with it. The production values are quite good, it ran well and looked rather nice (compared to other mobile games) on my outdated Samsung Galaxy 4 phone. The puzzles were simple but I found them to be satisfying. Going in I knew exactly what the game was so I didn't have any sort of high expectations for it, I felt as though I got very good value for my 99 cents.

On to other things...

I think the refund window for the Google Play Store is woefully too short. I tried to install the Banner Saga 2 (it downloads a small app from the play store and then downloads about 3 gigs when you open it). It said it would take about an hour to download so I left it for an hour, came back only to realise it had downloaded 1% and crashed. Afterwards I tried messing around with different settings to try and get it to install but I had no luck. In that timeframe my window for refunding the game had come and gone. Does anyone have any experience getting a refund past the 2 hour period where you can auto-refund an app? If support at Stoic can't fix my issue then I'm going to see if I can do that.

On another note I was wondering if anyone has ever tried the controllers with a clip on them that holds your device above the controler? They look great for phones but I have seen some that claim they can hold tablets. I'm not sure how comfortable that would be. Alternatively I have seen telescopic controllers that attach to the sides of your device (like the nintendo switch) but they are from companies I have never heard of and seem to be of dubious quality (the Ipega for example seems to have a large dead zone with its analog sticks). Also it looks like those would cover the speaker on and the headphone jack port on my device. For now I think I'll just get an OTG cable and plug in my logitech controller, but I'd really like to have one that can hold my device at the same time without being uncomfortable.

[sambojin]

There was someone that mentioned they liked incrementals/idle games a while back, so I've finally found one I like. Kind of. I still dislike the genre at large, but this one contains lots that I do like, so I'll give it a mention.

Clickpocalypse II is a Diablo themed incremental where you make a party of four characters and they roam about the countryside clearing monster infestations from dungeons. And attacking castles. Because apparently there's an endless winter happening and it's the monsters' and castle owner's fault. Probably.

Things I like about the "game": It's got a graphical representation of your party running around dungeons killing stuff. Your party selection does change how they kill stuff. You get to pick skills at level-ups, which can make your party kill stuff in different ways. There's no sound, so it's relaxingly non-repetitive. There's potions and scrolls to use, so there's stuff to click on while you're watching. The offline background mode lasts a while (3hrs), which can be boosted, so you can just load it up to collect your stuff, level-up your characters and watch it for a few minutes if you want.

Like most incrementals, you can't actually die, so it's just a matter of making the big numbers bigger. There's an actual end-point in the "game" (are incrementals really games?), so you can try out something different and see if it's faster next time. There's character unlocks and permanent bonuses to get as well.

So far I like it, as this sort of "game" goes. Some stuff is weird and I don't know what's actually efficient. Like my party of 2 priests and 2 druids looks nice, but they kill slowly. But the druids have great stats, so probably kill pretty quickly in offline mode. And I've kinda backed myself into a corner with the priests if double group-buffs don't stack, and if they're not used as stat-boosts in offline mode. I'm not sure if the druid's slow spell (essentially a web scroll) actually makes things slower to kill in online mode either. It often seems that way. Whatever.

Oh, and online means actually playing/watching, and offline means not doing that. It doesn't need an internet connection or anything.

Anyway, if you like incrementals, give it a go. The diablo-esque presentation and RPG'ness of it is kinda cool. And there's at least some player choice in the matter of party makeup and levelling order (as well as setting up potion bursts for xp/gold when actually "playing"). I hate incrementals, but if I'm going to have one on my phone, it's going to be this one.

[Retropunch]

There was someone that mentioned they liked incrementals/idle games a while back, so I've finally found one I like. Kind of. I still dislike the genre at large, but this one contains lots that I do like, so I'll give it a mention.

Clickpocalypse II is a Diablo themed incremental where you make a party of four characters and they roam about the countryside clearing monster infestations from dungeons. And attacking castles. Because apparently there's an endless winter happening and it's the monsters' and castle owner's fault. Probably.
Anyway, if you like incrementals, give it a go. The diablo-esque presentation and RPG'ness of it is kinda cool. And there's at least some player choice in the matter of party makeup and levelling order (as well as setting up potion bursts for xp/gold when actually "playing"). I hate incrementals, but if I'm going to have one on my phone, it's going to be this one.

Sounds interesting - I'll definitely give it a go. I always feel that with these games they could pretty much double your enjoyment if they made the 'playing' bit actually interesting/meaningful. It doesn't feel like it'd take much to do, but somehow none of them do it.

[Frumple]

There's a few clicker games that do, actually, though don't ask me to remember their names.

... it's pretty unilaterally miserable, in my experience. If you make the gameplay more involved for something that is pretty literally "pointlessly drawn out grind, the game", then you have to get involved in said grind rather than just popping in to occasionally direct it. And these things are usually more or less the distilled epitome of most unfun grind possible, which is basically the whole point behind all the automation and whatnot.

If you're looking for an experience like that, though, I'm pretty sure there's more than one MMO out there that could manage. Maybe some of those tick based games that loiter around, or some of the energy gated ones with more active gameplay.

[Retropunch]

There's a few clicker games that do, actually, though don't ask me to remember their names.

... it's pretty unilaterally miserable, in my experience. If you make the gameplay more involved for something that is pretty literally "pointlessly drawn out grind, the game", then you have to get involved in said grind rather than just popping in to occasionally direct it. And these things are usually more or less the distilled epitome of most unfun grind possible, which is basically the whole point behind all the automation and whatnot.

If you're looking for an experience like that, though, I'm pretty sure there's more than one MMO out there that could manage. Maybe some of those tick based games that loiter around, or some of the energy gated ones with more active gameplay.

Yeah, things like Tap Titans do have some interaction and it's rubbish, but I don't think it'd be impossible.

If it was more like 'playing yourself will net better rewards and allow you to progress much faster, but idling is fine either' then I'd at least have some reason for getting involved rather than just sorta coming in to mess around. If not that, then there could at least be more interaction on kitting out the party/tactics or whatever. I guess I've always been looking for (I made a thread about it actually a while back) something I could leave idling and progress, but come back to it and move it along/get involved when I have time.

EDIT: only just looked at clickpocalypse II - I've already completed it!! I'd forgotten all about it actually. Yeah it's a pretty good one as far as those kinda things go, as the spells and stuff you get can help clear stuff quickly so you actually feel you're having a bit of an impact.

[sambojin]

I've finally done it! I've finally made a custom interface for DoomRL so I can play it on my phone!

It took a fair bit of messing around in MagicDosbox, it's the old dos version of DoomRL, so there's no sound, but it works! Every keyboard button I need to play, all on the screen as a touch button. Except a->t for inventory (there was no menuing system back then), but I can probably squeak them in somewhere.

Woohoo!


Damn this version feels weird. 6d3 shotguns, different traits, one difficulty, no angel challenges....... But it's DoomRL, on my phone. That's plenty good enough anyway


Linky to the MagicDosbox overlay file on Chaosforge:
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=8045.msg67126#msg67126

[Retropunch]

I've finally done it! I've finally made a custom interface for DoomRL so I can play it on my phone!

It took a fair bit of messing around in MagicDosbox, it's the old dos version of DoomRL so there's no sound, but it works! Every keyboard button I need to play, all on the screen as a touch button. Except a->t for inventory (there was no menuing system back then), but I can probably squeak them in somewhere.

Woohoo!


Damn this version feels weird. 6d3 shotguns, different traits, one difficulty, no angel challenges....... But it's DoomRL, on my phone. That's plenty good enough anyway


Linky to the MagicDosbox overlay file on Chaosforge:
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=8045.msg67126#msg67126

Good work!!!! Have you gotten in touch with the developer? I'm sure they'd love to hear about it.

[sambojin]

The message is on his forum. Unfortunately he's kinda got other projects going right now (Jupiter Hell), so I won't bother him with it.

Even more unfortunately, Chaosforge doesn't seem to want to host the files, so if anyone wants the overlay, just message me and I'll email them to you or put up a dropbox with them in it.

I might do Pyro II and the Eye of the Beholder rpg series next. Both badly need keyboard or mouse click overlays to be played at all on mobile devices. Any other suggestions of good Dos games that could use this kind of stuff? TIE Fighter might be worth a go too, since I've read that Wing Commander and Privateer work ok. Lots of flight/space sims actually. Elite 2 or 3 might be fun to try out as well.


(ps. This is why I think MagicDosbox is one of the few very worthwhile purchases on Android. Sure, regular dosbox is free, but it still leaves plenty of games completely unplayable. Have you ever tried to play MoM without right-click, or SC2000 without long-click? Or TIE Fighter at all beyond the menu screens? MDB fixes that for you, but can do damn near anything on top of it. $4 for about 10-20 good longterm PC games I like playing is plenty of value in my opinion. Even if it is a bit of a mess around to set up an interface for something as complicated/keyboardy as a roguelike. We should make a reasonable place to share overlays we made of our favourite Dos games too. MDB's forums seem to be permanently down)

(Well, Pyro II works, but that was easy to do. Just a few onscreen keyboard buttons. TIE Fighter "works", but the joystick is WAY too sensitive. The rest is fine, just a matter of setting up keypress icons in easy-to-use positions (got engines and targeting done, so just weapons, crossfire, and weapon/shield power levels to do). Maybe if I make the joystick way bigger than it looks and calibrate it incorrectly it'll be less sensitive? Who knows. I'll fiddle around a bit and then see what can be done with EotB. EotB3 has keypress movement, a few hotkeys and "all attack", so that might be enough to make it semi-playable)

[BigD145]

Why Magic over Turbo?