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[Stirk]

The idea is we only know what the other people tell us/we can see for ourselves/

I know; the "fine" wasn't meant to be serious. I figured that since it was in a spoiler, it'd be fine because the other players could choose not to look at it. Sorry for the confusion.

Too late, you must pay the fine fine.

[ATHATH]

-snip-
we're currently lacking in the Face and Matrix departments
-snip-

Never fear, for I have a solution to this problem that costs only 25,605 115,605 Nuyen (or 133,605 Nuyen, depending on how your GM rules the Program Carrier to work) and doesn't use up any character build resources (except money)!

Spoiler: Behold, the mighty Cheese-Deck! (click to show/hide)

Items Required:
Transys Avalon (DR 6 commlink, 5,000)
  Stealth Dongle (Rating 6, 108,000)
  Add a Module Modification (2 Part Packs (500))
    Program Carrier (Contains Rating 6 Agent (p. 246, SR 5), 900)
1 Meter of Microfilament Data Cable (5)
Ace of Spades (p. 60, Run & Gun) (+1 to social tests, 1,000)
Trid Projector (200)

Cheese-Deck Stats:
A: -
S: 6
D: 6
F: 6
Total Number of Matrix Condition Boxes: 11

Agent Stats:
Physical (?) and Mental Attributes: 6
Computer: 6
Hacking: 6
Cyber-Combat: 6
AR Initiative: 12+1d6
Cold-Sim Initiative (with Cheese-Deck): 12+3d6
Hot-Sim Initiative (with Cheese-Deck): 12+4d6
Social Limit: 7 (6)
Extra Abilities:
+1 Die on Social Checks

Spoiler: What does it do? (click to show/hide)

It has stats that should belong to decks that cost more than a quarter of a million dollars, 6's in all attributes, and 6's in three of the main hacking skills. It can also serve as a face, if necessary, although it's not very good at it.

Spoiler: But can it blend? (click to show/hide)

Yes it can, if you eject the Stealth Dongle from it, insert a Stun Dongle (to make the Commlink count as a weapon) into it, and attach either the bayonet or the underbarrel chainsaw (p. 50, 51, and 53, Run & Gun) to it, the Cheese-Deck can cut things up into a fine mush. Or you could just use it to hack a "normal" blender.

Spoiler: Doesn't the Cheese-Deck need an Attack attribute? (click to show/hide)

No. There's an Sleaze-equivalent for almost every Attack-based Matrix action, so it's not really needed. If you really want one, though, you can replace the Add a Module mod with an Add an Attribute (Attack) mod.

Spoiler: How did you do that?! (click to show/hide)

The base device of the Cheese-Deck is not, in fact, an "actual" cyberdeck; it's actually a DR 6 commlink. Its DR of 6 gives it 6's in Data Processing and Firewall, and the DR 6 Stealth Dongle gives it Sleaze 6. Because it has a Sleaze value, the user of the Commlink can use it to perform hacking Matrix actions that require your device to have a Sleaze value.

The agent is a program, which means that it can be permanently added to a device that has an open Cyberdeck module slot by the Program Carrier. Conveniently, the Add a Module mod gives the Commlink a Cyberdeck module slot. You might need to "coerce" someone with ranks in the Hardware skill to install the Add a Module mod, though.

According to the text in the Program Carrier's description, "{The Program Carrier's} Price includes the program cost.", which means that we can get the agent for free. If your GM houserules that you still have to pay for the agent, the Cheese-Deck will still be creatable- it'll just be 18,000 Nuyen more expensive and be unable to be created at chargen (unless you use a Rating 4 agent).

According to the entry for agents in SR 5, their attributes are equal to their rating. This means that our agent has a Charisma and social limit of 6, which is pretty decent for a face. Sadly, it lacks any social skills, so it takes a -1 penalty on all actions that require the use of a social skill. By draping an Ace of Spades (a brand of clothing from Run & Gun) over the Cheese-Deck and activating its Wireless ability, the agent will get a +1 to social skills and his social limit, which conveniently negates the penalty for not having social skills. The trid projector allows the agent to manifest an image of itself in the physical world, which helps it communicate with others.

The data cable helps add to the Cheese-Deck's Cyberdeck disguise, but is optional.

Spoiler: This seems really OP... (click to show/hide)

I do not deny that the Cheese-Deck is quite a bit above the standard power-level. However, if your group lacks a decker and/or a face, the Cheese-Deck shouldn't step on any PC's toes. If the party lacks a Decker, the GM remembers to enforce the rules for the agent's pilot-program-level intelligence (p. 269, SR 5), and the players and GM make (and uphold) a gentleman's agreement to not abuse the Cheese-Deck's low price, the Cheese-Deck shouldn't rock the boat too much.

Spoiler: More cheese, please! (click to show/hide)

Open your SR 5 book to page 440. Look at the description for stealth tags. Stealth tags (which cost only 10 Nuyen) come with stats of A: -, S: 3, D: 3, and F: 3, which means that you could theoretically replace the Commlink and the Stealth Dongle with one of them, losing 3 points from all of the Cheese Deck's (but not the agent's) attributes, but saving a whopping 113,000 Nuyen from the standard Cheese-Deck. This means that a stealth tag-based Cheese-Deck would cost a ludicrous 2,615 Nuyen (1,145 Nuyen if you remove the Ace of Spades and trid projector).

Note: In case it wasn't already obvious, the stealth tag-based Cheese-Deck is both game-shatteringly overpowered and blatantly against the fluff of stealth tags, and should never be used in anything resembling normal gameplay.

As the creator of this idea (hopefully; I haven't checked the Internet to see if I'm the first to come up with this idea (yet)), I call dibs on creating/obtaining/owning the first Cheese-Deck that our party gets, if we are allowed to have one.

[Aseaheru]

 Rather sure that agents are technomancer only.

 And that it would get nixed to all hell by any/all GMs that run across it. Afterall, that level of cheese just isint healthy for anyone.



 I may also be eventually speccing into deckerland, to atleast provide backup matrix help.

[ATHATH]

Rather sure that agents are technomancer only.

 And that it would get nixed to all hell by any/all GMs that run across it. Afterall, that level of cheese just isint healthy for anyone.



 I may also be eventually speccing into deckerland, to atleast provide backup matrix help.

Nope, I think you're thinking of sprites. Agents are under the decker section and the book says that they are programs.

The Cheese-Deck could help you achieve decker-hood.

[Stirk]

I am not too sure on the rules, but here it goes .

1. I am pretty sure Agents can't wear armor (as they are programs). Throwing a shirt over your "deck" and screaming about bonuses will probably get you more of a penalty, if anything.
2. Agents seem to only be able to do Matrix actions, meaning they can't be used as a face anyway.
3. I think? the stealth dongle would have a price of 6*2*3000, or 36k. For what its worth, Chummer lists this as costing 108,000 NY*
   Googling it, it seems it is actually supposed to be [Rating]^2*3000, which makes more sense and means Chummer is right.
4. "Price includes program cost" means "Add the program cost to this price", not "Choose what ever program you want for 900 NY!". This is...pretty obvious.
5. Stealth Tags are, quite clearly, just Sensor tags with special powers. They can't do what you seem to think they can. This isn't against fluff, this is blatantly against function.

Still looking, but I am sure there are more issues .

[TheBiggerFish]

Aaaand that's dead.

[ATHATH]

I am not too sure on the rules, but here it goes .

1. I am pretty sure Agents can't wear armor (as they are programs). Throwing a shirt over your "deck" and screaming about bonuses will probably get you more of a penalty, if anything.
2. Agents seem to only be able to do Matrix actions, meaning they can't be used as a face anyway.
3. I think? the stealth dongle would have a price of 6*2*3000, or 36k. For what its worth, Chummer lists this as costing 108,000 NY*
   Googling it, it seems it is actually supposed to be [Rating]^2*3000, which makes more sense and means Chummer is right.
4. "Price includes program cost" means "Add the program cost to this price", not "Choose what ever program you want for 900 NY!". This is...pretty obvious.
5. Stealth Tags are, quite clearly, just Sensor tags with special powers. They can't do what you seem to think they can. This isn't against fluff, this is blatantly against function.

Still looking, but I am sure there are more issues .

But they have a Sleaze rating!

Ah, I was wondering why that 2 was there. Still, the Cheese-Deck costs much less than its competitors.

I've updated the prices. The Cheese-Deck is slightly more reasonable now, but still very good.

[ATHATH]

Aaaand that's dead.

Not really. Check the stats again; even after the edit, they're still quite good. For reference, a Novatech Navigator, which has a stat array of 6543 (arranged however you like) and 3 Cyberdeck programs (which tend to not provide very many worthwhile things except for agents and the Fork program), costs 205,000 and doesn't come with an extra party member. If you give it an agent program (with the ruling that you can't just put one in a module and get it for 900 Nuyen), its cost rises to 313,000.

[Stirk]

It can also only run a single program, has no attack rating, and probably a bunch of other things that are inferior to cyber-decks for the purpose of hacking. You could get something cheesy like the Himitsu (11k with 5 Sleaze), which is built-in better then this work around with some of the same problems. Looking at the rules, there really isn't a ton of attack options available for only sleaze, and most of them use sleaze as the limit so a non-dedicated hacker probably won't be hitting that high anyway. The Agent basically acts as a rookie decker, it isn't worthless but isn't a huge help if the DM throws tough stuff at you.

To address your edit:

Not really. Check the stats again; even after the edit, they're still quite good. For reference, a Novatech Navigator, which has a stat array of 6543 (arranged however you like) and 3 Cyberdeck programs (which tend to not provide very many worthwhile things except for agents and the Fork program), costs 205,000 and doesn't come with an extra party member. If you give it an agent program (with the ruling that you can't just put one in a module and get it for 900 Nuyen), its cost rises to 313,000.

You are really undervaluing programs, and over-valuating Agents. Agents are not party members. They are basically the Matrix equivalent to drones. Googling it, it looks like the module does include the price, but can't be used for agents, only hacking/common programs. For a program example, for 250NY, you can get the "Stealth" bonus to your Nova Nav, which boost sleaze +1. So you get something better at stealth, actually able to hack things, and able to switch to defense if it needs to with the additional ability to get another two programs to further boost whatever it is you do with it. Remember, the number of programs is the number of programs it can run at once, while the deck can run 3 programs at once and switch to whatever it wants whenever it wants, you are stuck to one program that can't change.

Even then-like I said-it really isn't good at what you want it to do. A Himitsu with a stealth boost program mod has the same sleaze, and a lot less defense for 12K.

[ATHATH]

It can also only run a single program, has no attack rating, and probably a bunch of other things that are inferior to cyber-decks for the purpose of hacking. You could get something cheesy like the Himitsu (11k with 5 Sleaze), which is built-in better then this work around with some of the same problems. Looking at the rules, there really isn't a ton of attack options available for only sleaze, and most of them use sleaze as the limit so a non-dedicated hacker probably won't be hitting that high anyway. The Agent basically acts as a rookie decker, it isn't worthless but isn't a huge help if the DM throws tough stuff at you.

If you want to run more programs, you can run the Virtual Machine program and/or replace the agent with the program that you want. If you prefer Attack actions over Sleaze actions, you can just swap out the Stealth Dongle with an Attack Dongle. The Himitsu has a terrible Firewall rating, while the Cheese-Deck not only has a Firewall of 6, but also has the same number of Matrix Condition Boxes as the Fairlight Excalibur.

Sure, the agent may have the skill of a newbie decker that put all of their attribute points into his/her/its Mental attributes, but it has one very distinct advantage: from what I can tell, the agent can't take biofeedback damage. Whenever something goes wrong, the agent can simply reboot the Cheese-Deck with no negative consequences other than a short wait period (and any lingering Matrix damage, but unless the agent has been using Attack actions (which it can't do, due to not having an Attack Attribute) or hits a data bomb, it shouldn't receive any, as it can simply reboot at the first sign of trouble).

Basically, the agent can save-scum.

[Stirk]

It can also only run a single program, has no attack rating, and probably a bunch of other things that are inferior to cyber-decks for the purpose of hacking. You could get something cheesy like the Himitsu (11k with 5 Sleaze), which is built-in better then this work around with some of the same problems. Looking at the rules, there really isn't a ton of attack options available for only sleaze, and most of them use sleaze as the limit so a non-dedicated hacker probably won't be hitting that high anyway. The Agent basically acts as a rookie decker, it isn't worthless but isn't a huge help if the DM throws tough stuff at you.

If you want to run more programs, you can run the Virtual Machine program and/or replace the agent with the program that you want. If you prefer Attack actions over Sleaze actions, you can just swap out the Stealth Dongle with an Attack Dongle. The Himitsu has a terrible Firewall rating, while the Cheese-Deck not only has a Firewall of 6, but also has the same number of Matrix Condition Boxes as the Fairlight Excalibur.

Sure, the agent may have the skill of a newbie decker that put all of their attribute points into his/her/its Mental attributes, but it has one very distinct advantage: from what I can tell, the agent can't take biofeedback damage. Whenever something goes wrong, the agent can simply reboot the Cheese-Deck with no negative consequences other than a short wait period (and any lingering Matrix damage, but unless the agent has been using Attack actions (which it can't do, due to not having an Attack Attribute) or hits a data bomb, it shouldn't receive any, as it can simply reboot at the first sign of trouble).

Virtual machine: Yes, but you could do the same thing with the deck and *still* have a TON more programs. Replace: No, you can only have one pre-programed one, unless you plan on removing and readding the modification every time the situation demands it. If you use the Attack dongle, then you can never use sleaze actions. It isn't so much prefering one over the other as "If you choose A you can never do B". They aren't something you can switch when you need them. Firewall rating and conditions don't mean much if you can just pull out 10 and throw them away when they break.

Lets do a practical example. Lets say a novice decker using the Novatech Navigator is facing off against your big cheese with an Agent of equal everything in a competition to see who can do X better. Lets say they decide to launch a Data Bomb, a simple action. The Agent uses his base, with a Sleaze of 6. The Decker changes his deck's stats with a free action, setting it at 6 as well. Then he runs a Stealth program, a Demolition program, and a Baby Monitor program. Now he hat a Sleaze of +7, his data bomb has an extra 1, and Baby Monitor, which should apparently always be running because. The Decker has a clear advantage from the start.

Agents can't take biofeedback damage because they are not biological. They are a program. This is because any attack that hits them damages the device they are in instead, using the Matrix Condition. They can't "save scum" so much as they can run away, and a decker who runs away literally anytime something happens is completely and utterly useless. Your entire plan hinges on never getting hit ever, which makes it a bad plan.

Also, he may or may not need 3 marks to reboot, whatever those are. Even then, its possible that as a program, he can't reboot himself. Not sure on the rules there.

[ATHATH]

It can also only run a single program, has no attack rating, and probably a bunch of other things that are inferior to cyber-decks for the purpose of hacking. You could get something cheesy like the Himitsu (11k with 5 Sleaze), which is built-in better then this work around with some of the same problems. Looking at the rules, there really isn't a ton of attack options available for only sleaze, and most of them use sleaze as the limit so a non-dedicated hacker probably won't be hitting that high anyway. The Agent basically acts as a rookie decker, it isn't worthless but isn't a huge help if the DM throws tough stuff at you.

If you want to run more programs, you can run the Virtual Machine program and/or replace the agent with the program that you want. If you prefer Attack actions over Sleaze actions, you can just swap out the Stealth Dongle with an Attack Dongle. The Himitsu has a terrible Firewall rating, while the Cheese-Deck not only has a Firewall of 6, but also has the same number of Matrix Condition Boxes as the Fairlight Excalibur.

Sure, the agent may have the skill of a newbie decker that put all of their attribute points into his/her/its Mental attributes, but it has one very distinct advantage: from what I can tell, the agent can't take biofeedback damage. Whenever something goes wrong, the agent can simply reboot the Cheese-Deck with no negative consequences other than a short wait period (and any lingering Matrix damage, but unless the agent has been using Attack actions (which it can't do, due to not having an Attack Attribute) or hits a data bomb, it shouldn't receive any, as it can simply reboot at the first sign of trouble).

Virtual machine: Yes, but you could do the same thing with the deck and *still* have a TON more programs. Replace: No, you can only have one pre-programed one, unless you plan on removing and readding the modification every time the situation demands it. If you use the Attack dongle, then you can never use sleaze actions. It isn't so much prefering one over the other as "If you choose A you can never do B". They aren't something you can switch when you need them. Firewall rating and conditions don't mean much if you can just pull out 10 and throw them away when they break.

Lets do a practical example. Lets say a novice decker using the Novatech Navigator is facing off against your big cheese with an Agent of equal everything in a competition to see who can do X better. Lets say they decide to launch a Data Bomb, a simple action. The Agent uses his base, with a Sleaze of 6. The Decker changes his deck's stats with a free action, setting it at 6 as well. Then he runs a Stealth program, a Demolition program, and a Baby Monitor program. Now he hat a Sleaze of +7, his data bomb has an extra 1, and Baby Monitor, which should apparently always be running because. The Decker has a clear advantage from the start.

Agents can't take biofeedback damage because they are not biological. They are a program. This is because any attack that hits them damages the device they are in instead, using the Matrix Condition. They can't "save scum" so much as they can run away, and a decker who runs away literally anytime something happens is completely and utterly useless. Your entire plan hinges on never getting hit ever, which makes it a bad plan.

Also, he may or may not need 3 marks to reboot, whatever those are. Even then, its possible that as a program, he can't reboot himself. Not sure on the rules there.

I didn't mean replace my program as in "replace it on the fly", I meant replace my program as in "don't put it in in the first place".

Can't I change out my Dongles at any time?

I concede in-combat and time-pressed hacking to your metahuman decker. However, my agent is better than your hacker in the pre-run set-up category. Because he can flee with (almost) no repercussions, my agent can keep coming back and trying again until he gets a perfect series of successes. Sure, your metahuman decker can do that too, but he has to wait to heal between attempts, while my agent only has to wait to reboot.

[Stirk]

I didn't mean replace my program as in "replace it on the fly", I meant replace my program as in "don't put it in in the first place".

Can't I change out my Dongles at any time?

I concede in-combat and time-pressed hacking to your metahuman decker. However, my agent is better than your hacker in the pre-run set-up category. Because he can flee with (almost) no repercussions, my agent can keep coming back and trying again until he gets a perfect series of successes. Sure, your metahuman decker can do that too, but he has to wait to heal between attempts, while my agent only has to wait to reboot.

Maybe? I don't know any rules for Dongle replacement.

The thing is, he can't flee with no repercussions. Its like trying to break into a place by jumping through the window screaming, then running back after someone spots you and expecting not only to not get shot, but to be able to do the exact same thing later until it works. You can't just keep doing the same thing over and over until you eventually have the dice on your side, that isn't how RPGs work. If you try to do something sneaky and fail, its either gone (Oh, someone keeps trying to get this secure file we have hidden here. Lets hide it somewhere else *MISSION FAILED*), deleted, or (if you are lucky) better guarded then last time (Well this moron keeps trying to bomb us. Send five deckers to ambush him next time he shows up). It isn't a do-over, it is a do-again. And each time you do it again, your guy gets weaker and their guys get stronger. Which lowers your chance of success, and it snowballs from there. Your guy still gets shot, it isn't a free action to reboot. Its a complex action, and the bad guys are going to have a higher Matrix Initiative then you at least some of the time. If he tries this, he is going to get hurt. Any plan that revolves around "And hoping none of us ever get shot" is a really, really bad plan.

And you only get damaged if you are kicked out by dump shock? The Rebooting action doesn't damage the user. An organic could use this (horribly flawed) plan just as well, if not better (as they own the device).

[ATHATH]

I didn't mean replace my program as in "replace it on the fly", I meant replace my program as in "don't put it in in the first place".

Can't I change out my Dongles at any time?

I concede in-combat and time-pressed hacking to your metahuman decker. However, my agent is better than your hacker in the pre-run set-up category. Because he can flee with (almost) no repercussions, my agent can keep coming back and trying again until he gets a perfect series of successes. Sure, your metahuman decker can do that too, but he has to wait to heal between attempts, while my agent only has to wait to reboot.

Maybe? I don't know any rules for Dongle replacement.

The thing is, he can't flee with no repercussions. Its like trying to break into a place by jumping through the window screaming, then running back after someone spots you and expecting not only to not get shot, but to be able to do the exact same thing later until it works. You can't just keep doing the same thing over and over until you eventually have the dice on your side, that isn't how RPGs work. If you try to do something sneaky and fail, its either gone (Oh, someone keeps trying to get this secure file we have hidden here. Lets hide it somewhere else *MISSION FAILED*), deleted, or (if you are lucky) better guarded then last time (Well this moron keeps trying to bomb us. Send five deckers to ambush him next time he shows up). It isn't a do-over, it is a do-again. And each time you do it again, your guy gets weaker and their guys get stronger. Which lowers your chance of success, and it snowballs from there. Your guy still gets shot, it isn't a free action to reboot. Its a complex action, and the bad guys are going to have a higher Matrix Initiative then you at least some of the time. If he tries this, he is going to get hurt. Any plan that revolves around "And hoping none of us ever get shot" is a really, really bad plan.

And you only get damaged if you are kicked out by dump shock? The Rebooting action doesn't damage the user. An organic could use this (horribly flawed) plan just as well, if not better (as they own the device).

Touché. Now that you've pointed it out, I can see the flaw(s) in my original thinking.

My new, revised pitch:
The Cheese-Deck is a cheap deck for people who are fine with never using either Sleaze or Attack, but still want to do offensive Data-Processing based actions and have a good Firewall rating.

[ATHATH]

Nevermind.