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Author Topic: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.  (Read 14920 times)

Stirk

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2016, 09:45:35 pm »

The idea is we only know what the other people tell us/we can see for ourselves/
I know; the "fine" wasn't meant to be serious. I figured that since it was in a spoiler, it'd be fine because the other players could choose not to look at it. Sorry for the confusion.

Too late, you must pay the fine fine.
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ATHATH

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2016, 06:38:00 pm »

-snip-
we're currently lacking in the Face and Matrix departments
-snip-
Never fear, for I have a solution to this problem that costs only 25,605 115,605 Nuyen (or 133,605 Nuyen, depending on how your GM rules the Program Carrier to work) and doesn't use up any character build resources (except money)!

Spoiler: What does it do? (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: But can it blend? (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: How did you do that?! (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: More cheese, please! (click to show/hide)

As the creator of this idea (hopefully; I haven't checked the Internet to see if I'm the first to come up with this idea (yet)), I call dibs on creating/obtaining/owning the first Cheese-Deck that our party gets, if we are allowed to have one.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 09:24:56 pm by ATHATH »
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*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
I didn't even read it first, I just saw it was ATHATH and noped it. Now that I read it x3 to noping

Aseaheru

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2016, 07:17:54 pm »

 Rather sure that agents are technomancer only.

 And that it would get nixed to all hell by any/all GMs that run across it. Afterall, that level of cheese just isint healthy for anyone.



 I may also be eventually speccing into deckerland, to atleast provide backup matrix help.
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ATHATH

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2016, 07:20:01 pm »

Rather sure that agents are technomancer only.

 And that it would get nixed to all hell by any/all GMs that run across it. Afterall, that level of cheese just isint healthy for anyone.



 I may also be eventually speccing into deckerland, to atleast provide backup matrix help.
Nope, I think you're thinking of sprites. Agents are under the decker section and the book says that they are programs.

The Cheese-Deck could help you achieve decker-hood.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 07:27:07 pm by ATHATH »
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*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
I didn't even read it first, I just saw it was ATHATH and noped it. Now that I read it x3 to noping

Stirk

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2016, 08:14:29 pm »

I am not too sure on the rules, but here it goes :P.

1. I am pretty sure Agents can't wear armor (as they are programs). Throwing a shirt over your "deck" and screaming about bonuses will probably get you more of a penalty, if anything.
2. Agents seem to only be able to do Matrix actions, meaning they can't be used as a face anyway.
3. I think? the stealth dongle would have a price of 6*2*3000, or 36k. For what its worth, Chummer lists this as costing 108,000 NY*
   Googling it, it seems it is actually supposed to be [Rating]^2*3000, which makes more sense and means Chummer is right.
4. "Price includes program cost" means "Add the program cost to this price", not "Choose what ever program you want for 900 NY!". This is...pretty obvious.
5. Stealth Tags are, quite clearly, just Sensor tags with special powers. They can't do what you seem to think they can. This isn't against fluff, this is blatantly against function.

Still looking, but I am sure there are more issues :P.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 08:36:18 pm by Stirk »
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2016, 08:44:26 pm »

Aaaand that's dead.
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ATHATH

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2016, 09:14:11 pm »

I am not too sure on the rules, but here it goes :P.

1. I am pretty sure Agents can't wear armor (as they are programs). Throwing a shirt over your "deck" and screaming about bonuses will probably get you more of a penalty, if anything.
2. Agents seem to only be able to do Matrix actions, meaning they can't be used as a face anyway.
3. I think? the stealth dongle would have a price of 6*2*3000, or 36k. For what its worth, Chummer lists this as costing 108,000 NY*
   Googling it, it seems it is actually supposed to be [Rating]^2*3000, which makes more sense and means Chummer is right.
4. "Price includes program cost" means "Add the program cost to this price", not "Choose what ever program you want for 900 NY!". This is...pretty obvious.
5. Stealth Tags are, quite clearly, just Sensor tags with special powers. They can't do what you seem to think they can. This isn't against fluff, this is blatantly against function.

Still looking, but I am sure there are more issues :P.
But they have a Sleaze rating! :P

Ah, I was wondering why that 2 was there. Still, the Cheese-Deck costs much less than its competitors.

I've updated the prices. The Cheese-Deck is slightly more reasonable now, but still very good.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 09:26:18 pm by ATHATH »
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*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
I didn't even read it first, I just saw it was ATHATH and noped it. Now that I read it x3 to noping

ATHATH

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2016, 09:22:39 pm »

Aaaand that's dead.
Not really. Check the stats again; even after the edit, they're still quite good. For reference, a Novatech Navigator, which has a stat array of 6543 (arranged however you like) and 3 Cyberdeck programs (which tend to not provide very many worthwhile things except for agents and the Fork program), costs 205,000 and doesn't come with an extra party member. If you give it an agent program (with the ruling that you can't just put one in a module and get it for 900 Nuyen), its cost rises to 313,000.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 09:34:37 pm by ATHATH »
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Quote
*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
I didn't even read it first, I just saw it was ATHATH and noped it. Now that I read it x3 to noping

Stirk

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2016, 09:26:54 pm »

It can also only run a single program, has no attack rating, and probably a bunch of other things that are inferior to cyber-decks for the purpose of hacking. You could get something cheesy like the Himitsu (11k with 5 Sleaze), which is built-in better then this work around with some of the same problems. Looking at the rules, there really isn't a ton of attack options available for only sleaze, and most of them use sleaze as the limit so a non-dedicated hacker probably won't be hitting that high anyway. The Agent basically acts as a rookie decker, it isn't worthless but isn't a huge help if the DM throws tough stuff at you.

To address your edit:

Quote
Not really. Check the stats again; even after the edit, they're still quite good. For reference, a Novatech Navigator, which has a stat array of 6543 (arranged however you like) and 3 Cyberdeck programs (which tend to not provide very many worthwhile things except for agents and the Fork program), costs 205,000 and doesn't come with an extra party member. If you give it an agent program (with the ruling that you can't just put one in a module and get it for 900 Nuyen), its cost rises to 313,000.

You are really undervaluing programs, and over-valuating Agents. Agents are not party members. They are basically the Matrix equivalent to drones. Googling it, it looks like the module does include the price, but can't be used for agents, only hacking/common programs. For a program example, for 250NY, you can get the "Stealth" bonus to your Nova Nav, which boost sleaze +1. So you get something better at stealth, actually able to hack things, and able to switch to defense if it needs to with the additional ability to get another two programs to further boost whatever it is you do with it. Remember, the number of programs is the number of programs it can run at once, while the deck can run 3 programs at once and switch to whatever it wants whenever it wants, you are stuck to one program that can't change.

Even then-like I said-it really isn't good at what you want it to do. A Himitsu with a stealth boost program mod has the same sleaze, and a lot less defense for 12K.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 10:11:50 pm by Stirk »
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ATHATH

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2016, 10:28:13 pm »

It can also only run a single program, has no attack rating, and probably a bunch of other things that are inferior to cyber-decks for the purpose of hacking. You could get something cheesy like the Himitsu (11k with 5 Sleaze), which is built-in better then this work around with some of the same problems. Looking at the rules, there really isn't a ton of attack options available for only sleaze, and most of them use sleaze as the limit so a non-dedicated hacker probably won't be hitting that high anyway. The Agent basically acts as a rookie decker, it isn't worthless but isn't a huge help if the DM throws tough stuff at you.
If you want to run more programs, you can run the Virtual Machine program and/or replace the agent with the program that you want. If you prefer Attack actions over Sleaze actions, you can just swap out the Stealth Dongle with an Attack Dongle. The Himitsu has a terrible Firewall rating, while the Cheese-Deck not only has a Firewall of 6, but also has the same number of Matrix Condition Boxes as the Fairlight Excalibur.

Sure, the agent may have the skill of a newbie decker that put all of their attribute points into his/her/its Mental attributes, but it has one very distinct advantage: from what I can tell, the agent can't take biofeedback damage. Whenever something goes wrong, the agent can simply reboot the Cheese-Deck with no negative consequences other than a short wait period (and any lingering Matrix damage, but unless the agent has been using Attack actions (which it can't do, due to not having an Attack Attribute) or hits a data bomb, it shouldn't receive any, as it can simply reboot at the first sign of trouble).

Basically, the agent can save-scum.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 10:30:23 pm by ATHATH »
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*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
I didn't even read it first, I just saw it was ATHATH and noped it. Now that I read it x3 to noping

Stirk

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2016, 10:56:21 pm »

It can also only run a single program, has no attack rating, and probably a bunch of other things that are inferior to cyber-decks for the purpose of hacking. You could get something cheesy like the Himitsu (11k with 5 Sleaze), which is built-in better then this work around with some of the same problems. Looking at the rules, there really isn't a ton of attack options available for only sleaze, and most of them use sleaze as the limit so a non-dedicated hacker probably won't be hitting that high anyway. The Agent basically acts as a rookie decker, it isn't worthless but isn't a huge help if the DM throws tough stuff at you.
If you want to run more programs, you can run the Virtual Machine program and/or replace the agent with the program that you want. If you prefer Attack actions over Sleaze actions, you can just swap out the Stealth Dongle with an Attack Dongle. The Himitsu has a terrible Firewall rating, while the Cheese-Deck not only has a Firewall of 6, but also has the same number of Matrix Condition Boxes as the Fairlight Excalibur.

Sure, the agent may have the skill of a newbie decker that put all of their attribute points into his/her/its Mental attributes, but it has one very distinct advantage: from what I can tell, the agent can't take biofeedback damage. Whenever something goes wrong, the agent can simply reboot the Cheese-Deck with no negative consequences other than a short wait period (and any lingering Matrix damage, but unless the agent has been using Attack actions (which it can't do, due to not having an Attack Attribute) or hits a data bomb, it shouldn't receive any, as it can simply reboot at the first sign of trouble).

Virtual machine: Yes, but you could do the same thing with the deck and *still* have a TON more programs. Replace: No, you can only have one pre-programed one, unless you plan on removing and readding the modification every time the situation demands it. If you use the Attack dongle, then you can never use sleaze actions. It isn't so much prefering one over the other as "If you choose A you can never do B". They aren't something you can switch when you need them. Firewall rating and conditions don't mean much if you can just pull out 10 and throw them away when they break.

Lets do a practical example. Lets say a novice decker using the Novatech Navigator is facing off against your big cheese with an Agent of equal everything in a competition to see who can do X better. Lets say they decide to launch a Data Bomb, a simple action. The Agent uses his base, with a Sleaze of 6. The Decker changes his deck's stats with a free action, setting it at 6 as well. Then he runs a Stealth program, a Demolition program, and a Baby Monitor program. Now he hat a Sleaze of +7, his data bomb has an extra 1, and Baby Monitor, which should apparently always be running because. The Decker has a clear advantage from the start.

Agents can't take biofeedback damage because they are not biological. They are a program. This is because any attack that hits them damages the device they are in instead, using the Matrix Condition. They can't "save scum" so much as they can run away, and a decker who runs away literally anytime something happens is completely and utterly useless. Your entire plan hinges on never getting hit ever, which makes it a bad plan.

Also, he may or may not need 3 marks to reboot, whatever those are. Even then, its possible that as a program, he can't reboot himself. Not sure on the rules there.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 11:07:00 pm by Stirk »
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ATHATH

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2016, 12:10:32 am »

It can also only run a single program, has no attack rating, and probably a bunch of other things that are inferior to cyber-decks for the purpose of hacking. You could get something cheesy like the Himitsu (11k with 5 Sleaze), which is built-in better then this work around with some of the same problems. Looking at the rules, there really isn't a ton of attack options available for only sleaze, and most of them use sleaze as the limit so a non-dedicated hacker probably won't be hitting that high anyway. The Agent basically acts as a rookie decker, it isn't worthless but isn't a huge help if the DM throws tough stuff at you.
If you want to run more programs, you can run the Virtual Machine program and/or replace the agent with the program that you want. If you prefer Attack actions over Sleaze actions, you can just swap out the Stealth Dongle with an Attack Dongle. The Himitsu has a terrible Firewall rating, while the Cheese-Deck not only has a Firewall of 6, but also has the same number of Matrix Condition Boxes as the Fairlight Excalibur.

Sure, the agent may have the skill of a newbie decker that put all of their attribute points into his/her/its Mental attributes, but it has one very distinct advantage: from what I can tell, the agent can't take biofeedback damage. Whenever something goes wrong, the agent can simply reboot the Cheese-Deck with no negative consequences other than a short wait period (and any lingering Matrix damage, but unless the agent has been using Attack actions (which it can't do, due to not having an Attack Attribute) or hits a data bomb, it shouldn't receive any, as it can simply reboot at the first sign of trouble).

Virtual machine: Yes, but you could do the same thing with the deck and *still* have a TON more programs. Replace: No, you can only have one pre-programed one, unless you plan on removing and readding the modification every time the situation demands it. If you use the Attack dongle, then you can never use sleaze actions. It isn't so much prefering one over the other as "If you choose A you can never do B". They aren't something you can switch when you need them. Firewall rating and conditions don't mean much if you can just pull out 10 and throw them away when they break.

Lets do a practical example. Lets say a novice decker using the Novatech Navigator is facing off against your big cheese with an Agent of equal everything in a competition to see who can do X better. Lets say they decide to launch a Data Bomb, a simple action. The Agent uses his base, with a Sleaze of 6. The Decker changes his deck's stats with a free action, setting it at 6 as well. Then he runs a Stealth program, a Demolition program, and a Baby Monitor program. Now he hat a Sleaze of +7, his data bomb has an extra 1, and Baby Monitor, which should apparently always be running because. The Decker has a clear advantage from the start.

Agents can't take biofeedback damage because they are not biological. They are a program. This is because any attack that hits them damages the device they are in instead, using the Matrix Condition. They can't "save scum" so much as they can run away, and a decker who runs away literally anytime something happens is completely and utterly useless. Your entire plan hinges on never getting hit ever, which makes it a bad plan.

Also, he may or may not need 3 marks to reboot, whatever those are. Even then, its possible that as a program, he can't reboot himself. Not sure on the rules there.
I didn't mean replace my program as in "replace it on the fly", I meant replace my program as in "don't put it in in the first place".

Can't I change out my Dongles at any time?

I concede in-combat and time-pressed hacking to your metahuman decker. However, my agent is better than your hacker in the pre-run set-up category. Because he can flee with (almost) no repercussions, my agent can keep coming back and trying again until he gets a perfect series of successes. Sure, your metahuman decker can do that too, but he has to wait to heal between attempts, while my agent only has to wait to reboot.
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*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
I didn't even read it first, I just saw it was ATHATH and noped it. Now that I read it x3 to noping

Stirk

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2016, 12:29:38 am »

I didn't mean replace my program as in "replace it on the fly", I meant replace my program as in "don't put it in in the first place".

Can't I change out my Dongles at any time?

I concede in-combat and time-pressed hacking to your metahuman decker. However, my agent is better than your hacker in the pre-run set-up category. Because he can flee with (almost) no repercussions, my agent can keep coming back and trying again until he gets a perfect series of successes. Sure, your metahuman decker can do that too, but he has to wait to heal between attempts, while my agent only has to wait to reboot.

Maybe? I don't know any rules for Dongle replacement.

The thing is, he can't flee with no repercussions. Its like trying to break into a place by jumping through the window screaming, then running back after someone spots you and expecting not only to not get shot, but to be able to do the exact same thing later until it works. You can't just keep doing the same thing over and over until you eventually have the dice on your side, that isn't how RPGs work. If you try to do something sneaky and fail, its either gone (Oh, someone keeps trying to get this secure file we have hidden here. Lets hide it somewhere else *MISSION FAILED*), deleted, or (if you are lucky) better guarded then last time (Well this moron keeps trying to bomb us. Send five deckers to ambush him next time he shows up). It isn't a do-over, it is a do-again. And each time you do it again, your guy gets weaker and their guys get stronger. Which lowers your chance of success, and it snowballs from there. Your guy still gets shot, it isn't a free action to reboot. Its a complex action, and the bad guys are going to have a higher Matrix Initiative then you at least some of the time. If he tries this, he is going to get hurt. Any plan that revolves around "And hoping none of us ever get shot" is a really, really bad plan.

And you only get damaged if you are kicked out by dump shock? The Rebooting action doesn't damage the user. An organic could use this (horribly flawed) plan just as well, if not better (as they own the device).
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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2016, 12:41:20 am »

I didn't mean replace my program as in "replace it on the fly", I meant replace my program as in "don't put it in in the first place".

Can't I change out my Dongles at any time?

I concede in-combat and time-pressed hacking to your metahuman decker. However, my agent is better than your hacker in the pre-run set-up category. Because he can flee with (almost) no repercussions, my agent can keep coming back and trying again until he gets a perfect series of successes. Sure, your metahuman decker can do that too, but he has to wait to heal between attempts, while my agent only has to wait to reboot.

Maybe? I don't know any rules for Dongle replacement.

The thing is, he can't flee with no repercussions. Its like trying to break into a place by jumping through the window screaming, then running back after someone spots you and expecting not only to not get shot, but to be able to do the exact same thing later until it works. You can't just keep doing the same thing over and over until you eventually have the dice on your side, that isn't how RPGs work. If you try to do something sneaky and fail, its either gone (Oh, someone keeps trying to get this secure file we have hidden here. Lets hide it somewhere else *MISSION FAILED*), deleted, or (if you are lucky) better guarded then last time (Well this moron keeps trying to bomb us. Send five deckers to ambush him next time he shows up). It isn't a do-over, it is a do-again. And each time you do it again, your guy gets weaker and their guys get stronger. Which lowers your chance of success, and it snowballs from there. Your guy still gets shot, it isn't a free action to reboot. Its a complex action, and the bad guys are going to have a higher Matrix Initiative then you at least some of the time. If he tries this, he is going to get hurt. Any plan that revolves around "And hoping none of us ever get shot" is a really, really bad plan.

And you only get damaged if you are kicked out by dump shock? The Rebooting action doesn't damage the user. An organic could use this (horribly flawed) plan just as well, if not better (as they own the device).
Touché. Now that you've pointed it out, I can see the flaw(s) in my original thinking.

My new, revised pitch:
The Cheese-Deck is a cheap deck for people who are fine with never using either Sleaze or Attack, but still want to do offensive Data-Processing based actions and have a good Firewall rating.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 01:22:48 am by ATHATH »
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*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
I didn't even read it first, I just saw it was ATHATH and noped it. Now that I read it x3 to noping

ATHATH

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Re: Shadowrun 5th edition PbP OOC Thread [6/6] Waitlist open.
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2016, 12:47:15 am »

Nevermind.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 12:54:25 am by ATHATH »
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Quote
*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
I didn't even read it first, I just saw it was ATHATH and noped it. Now that I read it x3 to noping
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