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[Faces of Mu]

quote:Originally posted by herrbdog:
<STRONG>

Greek
oikos nemein (to manage the house) = english economy

related:
oikos logos (to study the house) = english ecology

Edit: Greek spelling (it's been years since my classical Greek and Latin classes...)

[ October 19, 2007: Message edited by: herrbdog ]</STRONG>

PRODUCTION LOGISTICS!  

Unless someone else out there has the know-how, I would like to learn how to design a program to work out the most efficient fortress model based on production logistics AND the products/workshops I choose. It would be even better if I could save that model and then ask it to find the best way to add a new product/workshop if I changed my mind later and needed to find the best place to make an addition considering the current configuration.

[Goran]

Industrial tube.

Basically, you have a main corridor that is surrounded by warehouses and workshops.

Basically, this consists of 3x3 of 5x5 modules(I prefer odd to even when I build my forts, thus I prefer 5x5 rooms over 6x6)

The centre of the design is a 5 squares wide corridor along whose entire length niches branch out horizontaly. These niches serve as stockpiles for input goods.

Above and below these niches are workshops which have easy access to the raw materials they need.

Between the workshops, ergo, below and above the main corridor are additional warehouses for finished goods. These warehouses are connected to the main corridor by occasional stairs.

So basically, the transit/hauling circulation is:

1) Red - travel through main corridor
2) Blue - branching off the main corridor to leave raw materials at apropriate stockpile
3) Green - artisan picking up raw material and taking it to workshop for processing
4) Magenta - transport of finished goods to warehouse
5) Orange - transport of finished goods from warehouse to final user

The 4 and 5 are quite optional since it depends on what wares are about, the warehouse could also be an interconnecting stockpile and could be used by an adjacent workshop. Basically, a production chain could be linked in a spiral with 4 workshops linked into a chain. In theory even 7 if the chain works well and the chain does not suffocate itself.

[Faces of Mu]

That's an awesome idea, Goran! It reminds me of whirring but circular nature of electrons on an atom.

[Mad Jackal]

adding to Gorans. Which I very much like.

I was thinking of adding the odd layer up and down from the workshops to get the bedrooms near the workshop. Then the dining halls can be between them .

Depending on noise transfer of course. I might just add a "blank" layer or  maintenance layer between his 3 and my added levels above and below.

Food running the same path as his, but orange out to the users should only need to go to various food stockpiles in the dining rooms located directly above (2 levels up) the main corridoor.

[Goran]

I also have an idea for the residential module for the system I presented:

Level 0 connects to the main transport artery and might also serve as good connection point for two tubes, the one going E-W and the one going N-S, but that is optional(just useful to get even more into less space)

Also, level 1 serves as alcohol storage, since its half-way between the residential and industrial zones and one of the most frequent places in the colony. Both the brewery and the kitchen should be close.

Level 1 is the dining room. And a marvelous one, considering its dimensions are 17x17. The main feature is the sandwich chair-table-cooked food stockpile-table-chair that goes circular along the edges of the room leaving the centre for the stairs to the private rooms.

Level 2 is the residential level. It features a lobby which might house public meeting room, statue park or some decoration and 18 5x1 rooms, which should be more than enough space for your dwarves. It could hold 20 rooms if the lobby was used differently, maybe even more, but not much to be gained there.

Basically, you'de need 12 such floors to provide housing to 200 dwarves. So, one such block with six residential stories up and down could house your entire population. More blocks and perhaps adding 'penthouses' for your nobles at the end might push you to 3-4 such facilities in your fort that would provide more than enough room for everyone.

Also, another idea that I liked is currently intriguing me. 'Misting room'... imagine a huge waterfall going throughout the centre of this design, from above the highest level to below the lowest one. Would be quite scenic.

[Teldin]

I'd say the most efficient way to be a large central staircase going deeper and deeper down with the various related workshops spread around it. In the middle of the staircase (or somewhere near it) would be a vertical shaft filled with water, connected to the outer river, that can be tapped for irrigation, ponds, traps, or waterfalls to make a proper plumbing system.

Something simple like:

code:

Top View:    Side View:
###########  ###########
#WWWWWWWWW#  #____||___#
#WW <*> WW#  #____||___#
#WW <*> WW#  #____||___#
#WWWWWWWWW#  #____||___#
###########  ###########

W being workshops, < > being stairs, * being either a vertical tunnel filled permanently with water or a giant rotating shaft for mills/mechanics.

[ October 27, 2007: Message edited by: Teldin ]

[ October 27, 2007: Message edited by: Teldin ]

[Faces of Mu]

Great elaborations, Goran. I really like the detail you're working into it (i.e., dining sandwiches, number of bedrooms, etc) and how it all fits into a residential "module".

What is it exactly that generates mist? We know steam, but just water alone? I'm thinking the water actually has to hit a surface on that level for that level to experience the mist. Dunno how far up it might spread, if it all. If that's the case, then a simple back and forthing cascade could be achieved down levels, but dunno about how to contain the water on that level without blocking off the mist, too. Maybe the water can just hit any water surface and hence each catching pond can be built into the floor, but IIRC the grate movie didn't seem to show mist.

Am thinking now of having regular shafts down throughout the fort that exploit the exact radius a waterfall covers with mist, so that most of the fort could be exposed. It'd be a lot of work though...!

[Faces of Mu]

I've seen a lot of people posting the idea of the central shaft idea (seems to be replacing the central hallway model!).

I question the logistics of this. Consider, for example, the spokes on a wheel. In the shaft idea, to get from any point on any spoke a dwarf must travel along the spoke to the centre and back out again, even if it's just to get to one 'spot' lower on the wheel. This is great for making every 'spoke' roughly the same distance from any other (like being able to fold the fortress around one critical corner).

However, having regular stair wells down and spaced out evenly (or as needed) would then turn the wheel into more like a spider web model, where dwarves can move not only towards the centre and back, but simply up and down and around the fortress much faster.

This of course raises questions of defence and security, that is, sectioning off tantrumming dwarves easily, and deciding on where the fortress actually exits the ground (only at the centre or from most of the stairwells?). But as always, to each their own on those notes.

[Goran]

Well, the main hall leads somewhere. In most cases its towards the source of raw material and goods. The obvious target in the current version was the magma flow. We still dont know exactly where this tube/shaft should lead.

[Grek]

The water table would be my guess. You would want large water pumps in big fortresses.

[Leerok the Lacerta]

One may not have noticed, but we seem to be discussing arcology designs. Besides that, there've been discussions about water and magma computers, complete with logic gates and gears.

I think we're seeing emergent edutainment that includes such subjects as computer architecture, military tactics, economics, government, sociology, geology, and probably others.

[Mechanoid]

I think the best form would be to make a giant 50-tile wide vertical column, and then instead of putting the spiral staircase on the inside, you put it on the outside, placing low-traffic inter-connected shafts along it.
That way it would look like a giant spiral supported by smaller shafts.

...
Obviously, in order to protect the dwarves durring a seige, the outer spiral needs to be protected via windows and rewalled glass, and to again stop seige enemies from moving vertically too easilly, the short-cut elements would have to be sealable. Probably with floodgates/doors behind lava/water falls which flow through grates downwards into the next shortcut.

And of course, the ability to flood the entire spiral itself.  

[Faces of Mu]

quote:Originally posted by Leerok the Lacerta:
<STRONG>One may not have noticed, but we seem to be discussing arcology designs. Besides that, there've been discussions about water and magma computers, complete with logic gates and gears.

I think we're seeing emergent edutainment that includes such subjects as computer architecture, military tactics, economics, government, sociology, geology, and probably others.</STRONG>

Great article, Leerok, and a perfect word for what I'm looking for here. I'm really trying to emphasise the models or design principles people will likely carry from one fortress to the next, regardless of what the outside of it looks like (or the outer shell, given some people's plans to create underground "eggs").

I've just remembered the diamond shaped bedrooms Tamren suggested in another thread, and I'm thinking if there's any benefit to changing the cube-shaped designs we're considering into alternative shapes, such as the diamond that accommodates the bedroom diamond perfectly. Workshops could be the same size and shape, with the 3x3 workshop taking up the centre and the rest of the room forming a perfect kite. For a workshop that might have more than one dwarf using it (such as four masons using the one mason's workshop, amongst stone detailing and architecture tasks), the above/below bedroom could then be evenly divided into four, with each bedroom having stairs down into the workshop.

code:

    ###
   ##>##
  ##...##
 ##<...<##
##..XXX..##
#>..XXX..>#
##..XXX..##
 ##<...<##
  ##...##
   ##>##
    ###
    ╔═╗
   ╔╝<║ 
  ╔╝D.╠═╗
  ║D.Θ║D╚╗ 
╔═╩═╦░╣.D╚╗
║<.Θ░ ░Θ.<║
╚╗D.╠░╩═╦═╝
 ╚╗D║Θ.D║ 
  ╚═╣.D╔╝
    ║<╔╝
    ╚═╝
X workshop
< down
> up
Θ bed
D dresser/drawers
░ glass window (next to void)

This doesn't add much to the ideas of how workshops all interconnect, but it renews an old but good bedroom design.

[winner]

I always put a doors all over to stop the spread of magma water an miasma

[Ibu Muffintakers]

braaaaaaaains

You'll notice all other messages in this thread are from October 2007