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[IndigoFenix]

I'm not personally experienced in the fine art of choking people to death, but it seems to me that choking someone is just cutting off their windpipe, so choking someone should just cause them to slowly suffocate as long as you maintain the grip, like drowning or when both lungs are damaged.

While the latest update's reduction of pain effects is a welcome addition, it's still possible to KO someone in three turns by choking them, which is both cheap and unrealistic.

Granted, creatures who are suffocating for any reason should fall unconscious for a little while before actually dying, maybe suffer other debilitating effects like slowly losing their vision range, but that's a different issue, and is less immersion breaking as far as gameplay is concerned.

If there is supposed to be some method of instantly knocking someone out by strangling them, it should only be available to particularly skilled wrestlers.

EDIT: So apparently there is a method of choking that causes unconsciousness in a few seconds by restricting blood to the brain.  However, I still think it should require a bit more skill to pull off, for balancing purposes.

[Vattic]

It would be interesting if, when combat gets the same treatment as the arts, you could learn such chokeholds from those in the know.

[Neonivek]

I'm not personally experienced in the fine art of choking people to death, but it seems to me that choking someone is just cutting off their windpipe, so choking someone should just cause them to slowly suffocate as long as you maintain the grip, like drowning or when both lungs are damaged.

While the latest update's reduction of pain effects is a welcome addition, it's still possible to KO someone in three turns by choking them, which is both cheap and unrealistic.

Well there are a few things that can happen while choking someone people forget.
1) You can crush someone's windpipe, and kill them
2) You can cut off the bloodflow to the brain causing unconsciousness quickly (USUALLY this doesn't happen because most choke holds exist to crush the windpipe)

[DeCervantes]

I personally think it is still difficult enough to perform on bigger opponents but I agree that it is a bit overpowered to kill enemies your size or smaller in 3 turns by chocking them to death.  I personally think that the trick would be maybe to have a bigger gap between unconsciousness and death. Also the time the opponents need to get unconscious should maybe be a bit longer.
Main point I want to make is that it take quite long for a human being to actually choke to death, even if they become unconscious. Sure you can coup de grace your enemies once they are unconscious but if you are distracted he may wake up again

[IndigoFenix]

I guess the main question is how hard is it in real life to knock a struggling enemy unconscious with a chokehold?

For that matter, how hard is it to lock and break someone's limbs with a grapple? Maybe all wrestling needs to be reworked.

[Helari]

I guess the main question is how hard is it in real life to knock a struggling enemy unconscious with a chokehold?

For that matter, how hard is it to lock and break someone's limbs with a grapple? Maybe all wrestling needs to be reworked.

depending on physique and technique (of everyone involved) both can be rather easy. if the setup is perfect (a firm lock and the positioning that allows you to use your entire body to move the limb where it shouldn't go) you don't need extreme power to break something.

in regards to chokes blood chokes are pretty fast but wind chokes can be very painful and disorienting even before you start losing consciousness (and often times it will hurt like hell even afterwards).

to quote a master:

"You haven't been really choked till you shit yourself, mate."

[Broseph Stalin]

I was actually just about to post a suggestion for a choking buff.

The way choking used to work was you locked the hold in then leaned on the attack button for about a minute while you became exhausted and collapsed multiple times waiting for the fact they couldn't breathe to kill them. A choke that blocks bloodflow should cause unconscious very very quickly.

The buff I was going to suggest is that creatures that don't breathe but can bleed to death should be effected by strangling because there's not much difference between the blood not going to your brain because there's an arm in the way and the blood not going to your brain because it's on the floor.

A person whose choked unconscious should regain consciousness very quickly once the choke has been released. For the purposes of realism it probably should take a while to kill them.

[Melting Sky]

In real life a choke hold doesn't kill instantly but generally it is quite fast, particularly those that cut off blood circulation to the brain.

[Vattic]

I guess the main question is how hard is it in real life to knock a struggling enemy unconscious with a chokehold?

For that matter, how hard is it to lock and break someone's limbs with a grapple? Maybe all wrestling needs to be reworked.

depending on physique and technique (of everyone involved) both can be rather easy. if the setup is perfect (a firm lock and the positioning that allows you to use your entire body to move the limb where it shouldn't go) you don't need extreme power to break something.

Just want to add that size isn't everything either especially if both are on the ground. When wrestling a larger fighter the smaller can nullify much of their size advantage by taking it to the ground, though I imagine you'll still struggle at choking a giant so big you can't get your arms around.

[Broseph Stalin]

In real life a choke hold doesn't kill instantly but generally it is quite fast, particularly those that cut off blood circulation to the brain.

It's relatively quick but not less than two or three minutes.

[Melting Sky]

In real life a choke hold doesn't kill instantly but generally it is quite fast, particularly those that cut off blood circulation to the brain.

It's relatively quick but not less than two or three minutes.

Yeah, but complete unconsciousness comes in well under a minute if circulation is cut off and after that you're pretty much done in real life or DF unless you have friends. Perhaps a better check on the power of the choke hold would be to make it harder to execute and easier to break out of when used on strong/large/skilled opponents. I'm not talking slight differences in size and strength like you see in an MMA match where one fighter is slightly bigger than the other, I'm talking about an opponent taking on something considerably larger than them. There is a reason there are weight divisions in combat sports. For instance it should be next to impossible for a dwarf to try and choke out a Minotaur that is competent in wrestling unless they are absolutely legendary wrestlers. It should also be completely impossible to choke an opponent whose neck is too large for the smaller opponent to reach around. For instance a dwarf should not be able to choke out an elephant etc.

[Broseph Stalin]

Anybody doubting the realism of a DF choke causing an instant knockout should watch this.



I think that the overarching problem with wrestling is that if you're bigger than the guy you're grabbing you can do whatever you want and their skill or resistance doesn't really come into play. With regular combat there's parrys and dodges and misses and high risk moves and glancing blows but with wrestling either they can break the hold and wrestling against them is useless or they can't and it's unstoppable. A little more meat on the wrestling system would be wonderful.

[Melting Sky]

Anybody doubting the realism of a DF choke causing an instant knockout should watch this.



I think that the overarching problem with wrestling is that if you're bigger than the guy you're grabbing you can do whatever you want and their skill or resistance doesn't really come into play. With regular combat there's parrys and dodges and misses and high risk moves and glancing blows but with wrestling either they can break the hold and wrestling against them is useless or they can't and it's unstoppable. A little more meat on the wrestling system would be wonderful.

Yeah, admittedly usually an opponent is actively fighting back so you can't execute a perfect hold like that where it instantly cuts off both carotid arteries but that still is a great depiction of just how quick it can be. I've definitely seen people go down in under 10 or 15 seconds in an MMA match if somebody gets them in a rear naked choke hold and they don't manage at least partially defend it.

[Putnam]

Main problem in DF isn't so much how powerful choking is as much as how utterly weird wrestling is. No sense of position etc.

[Fleeting Frames]

Broseph Stalin: Tbh, in wrestling at low skill levels skill can massively compensate against multiple times size differences...

However, in DF your dwarves are not likely to encounter not multiple, but magnitudes size differences. Wrestling a bear, while doable, is still remarkable. However, a bear is still about sixtieth of the size of an adult dragon.