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[Ekaton]

I was inspired by the recent thread about vanilla graphics and I wonder - is this not one of the reasons why DF can't gain popularity in the complex game niche?

Stardew Valley clearly showed that games with dated graphics and about what might seem boring to most players are clearly in demand. Of course it is a different game from DF and lacks its complexity, but - I talked with some people who like to play SV, and told them about DF - that there you can farm too, on a grander scale, and that you can also fight goblins, mine, smelt, produce golden spires and many other things we do. They all but two seemed interested in the game, the two stated that they wanted a village adventure, but after pointing that there is and adv mode where you can build now and which can in the future be similar to SV, they got interested too. What was the reason why nobody liked DF? Graphics. They ALL claimed that that it is hard to know what they see there and when I pointed that there are graphic mods, nobody wanted to download them and install them - even though it is very easy to do, many people believe that those will be hard to install and will potentially make the game unstable. The first impression is what really counts.

Another case is my friend who loves UnRealWorld. The same story even though the game is different. He kinda didn't like high fantasy things in the game but that wouldn't turn him off, graphics did. He said, again, that in URW he can see immediately what's in the world, and in DF he has to memorize everything and icons are not very clear. After some convincing I installed Masterwork for him and he's hooked. Point for us, but he would have been lost without it.

Also, a game can have very simple graphics and be very complex and still be approachable for quite many - look at Command Modern Air/Naval Operations - the graphics are very simple and the game is really complex in how jamming, different military systems and especially submarines work, but in there you know what you are supposed to see. Graphics are very simple but quite clear. You can instantly distinguish a plane from a sub, and an enemy from a friend.

So my point is - we have so many tilesets, why won't DF benefit from them? Why won't vanilla DF include some of the most popular with option to choose from them before starting the first game? I am not saying that it is necessary to abandon ASCII altogether, I mean to give new players a choice. And perhaps screenshots that are shown to public should show the game WITH tilesets - we DO need some marketing here to make game more approachable. IRL I work in marketing and I certainly know how important first impressions are, and I think that by changing the overall image of DF, we can make it much more popular and approachable for people who like the idea, but are turned off by the graphics. The interface is hardly approachable too, but not for players who like games like URW, which is not that approachable either. If it could be improved, great, but perhaps it is not as important as how DF depicts the world itself.

To finally sum up - we will not make this game approachable for casual players, they have their games, but there are quite some players who would like it, would even stand those unapproachable menus, but won't play it for long because they can't figure out what they are supposed to see on their screen.


Post your own experiences, especially with other players. Are they "blocked" by the ASCII graphics too or perhaps more by vanilla interface? Share your experiences, perhaps they can be used to make game more popular and approachable.

EDIT:
And lastly, I don't think that the lack of tutorials in-game is that important - a lot of people I know learn how to play a game from YT Videos and there are plenty of those.

EDIT 2:
I know that a lot of people like vanilla and feel attached to it, but keep an open mind and try to imagine how a "lazy newb" might feel. I truly believe that without LNB and Starter Pack we wouldn't have many players we have.

[WakeMeUp]

First post here. Yeah, that is why I didnt play DWARF FORTRESS for a long time and only a couple days ago I was hooked up by the game and love it now.

Vanilla - I played it a couple times before. Didnt like it. Like u said, I didnt know what I was supposed to see there.
Masterwork - I was shown this mod and installed it. A whole another experience. I can now see what is what and things like therapist allow me to play this game at all.

I love roguelikes, they are amazing genre. I love Cataclysm DDA and I play URW from time to time because of the graphics. I never play roguelikes with ASCII as a rule. They take too long to learn. I think OP is right. DF needs some graphics and the funniest thing - they're already there. Just not in the game but in mods. And most people only care about mods after they played the main game.

[Cormack]

I never even bothered to play the original game. Come on, how can anyone play it? I guess that there might be some nostalgia there with those graphics but if you have a choice - why don't you play with tilesets? They are much better.

[MonkeyHead]

DF will not go mainstream as it is a massive niche title. Graphics will not change this.

[Ekaton]

DF will not go mainstream as it is a massive niche title. Graphics will not change this.

Guess I used word "mainstream" in a wrong way - I meant mainstream in the complex game, roguelike and simulation genres. Changed the title of the thread accordingly.

DF could get much more attention as it offers many possibilities for many kinds of players:
1. For those who like complex strategy, city-builders, complex grand strategy like EUIV it offers the fortress mode, and yet games like RimWorld are seemingly more popular, even though with some modding they arr very hard too.
2. For roguelike fans there is a complex adv system.
3. For those who like games like Thief there will be a system that would allow players to be the thief.
4. For those who like non-violent roleplay, and there seems to be quite many of us here, the game already allows the player to be a poet, a musician, a scholar, and will in the future allow the player to roleplay many other professions.
5. For those who like farming games it will allow to be a farmer in the near future, or does it allow already? Haven't checked this option in adv yet.

This game really has a lot of potential to interest many, but I believe that the graphics are one of the main reasons why it does not.

[vishdafish]

DF will not go mainstream as it is a massive niche title. Graphics will not change this.

I disagree, there are quite a lot of df clones (rimworld, gnomoria and banished to name a few). The base gameplay of df is far superior to all of these games. The only reason why (some) of them are more popular is the graphics, which makes the game far more appealing to most gamers.

I have put 900+ hours into df; if there were no tilesets, I dont think I could play df and I am sure a lot of other df players don't find df as enjoyable without a tileset.

[Ekaton]

DF will not go mainstream as it is a massive niche title. Graphics will not change this.

I disagree, there are quite a lot of df clones (rimworld, gnomoria and banished to name a few). The base gameplay of df is far superior to all of these games. The only reason why (some) of them are more popular is the graphics, which makes the game far more appealing to most gamers.

I have put 900+ hours into df; if there were no tilesets, I dont think I could play df and I am sure a lot of other df players don't find df as enjoyable without a tileset.

It all depends on how the game is viewed by the players, which is where the art of marketing is the answer.

First of all, how the game is presented in the media - the most complex game ever, most hardcore game ever, not for casuals, losing is fun, worst graphics ever. This is the general image of the game. Graphics and interface certainly help to keep it a lot. It certainly does not help the game get more players.

If, on the other hand, this image was replaced with - the game in which you can be whoever you want to be, where you can build epic fortresses, dozens or hundreds of games combine in one, the ultimate fantasy RPG, and if the game's numerous features possibilities were clearly stated in a way that the players can know at a glance how much they can do, then it will certainly open it for many players - as I stated before:

- You want to build a city/castle/fortress? You can! In the most advanced system yet to be developed. Replacing the word "complex" with "advanced" would certainly help.
- You want to play roguelike? DF is the best roguelike of all, ultimate roguelike, if you will. It has the most realistic world, richest gameplay, the most possibilities, countless enemies and so on, so on.
- You want to be a farmer - we've got the most realistic, yet very approachable, farming system. Grow numerous crops (a number would work best, like 100+ or something), fertilize, sow, reap, and sell your goods in the nearest city. Invest the money to furtherly expand your farm. Feed the fantasy world!
- You want to be the tavern owner? There are quite a few games and mods that allow you to do that, sure, but in here you can have the best system - produce and sell drinks, farm and cook delicious food, listen and spread gossips, treat the wounded, fight the bandits and the creatures of the night, entertain your guests, choose the music, decorations, and many more!
- You want to be an artist? Wander the massive world, tell enchanting stories, learn the world's lore and compose poems and songs about the bravest warriors and greatest victories! Or achieve ones yourself and the compose epic songs about yourself and they will be sang for generations!
- You want to be a thief? (In the future) We've got the most advanced system for you! You can be a thief, join or form a guild, steal thousands of different objects in thousands of cities and sell them to numerous fences or unsuspecting customers.
- You want to be a bandit/a thug/a marauder? Well, you can. Rob people, prey on small villages, loot and murder the innocent. This is a game for you!
- You want to be a merchant? Well, you know how this works by now.

We need to create a positive image of the game. That it is complex, yet approachable now with the new graphics and additional programs. In the future it will be highly customisable with different fantasy levels, brag about it! You can roleplay more professions than in any other game in a more advanced and rich world than anywhere else.

But ultimately I believe that you can't do it with ASCII graphics, and that is why games either abandon it (like Cataclysm) or simply begin with tilesets - RimWorld, Prison Architect, Stardea Valley and many more. DF has competition now, and those games are much better suited for new players - approachable, with clear graphics, and most of all - they know how to advertise themselves and to create a certain image that attracts new players.

[Cormack]

Ultima Ratio Regum has ASCII graphics but it might be more succesful than DF because it does MANY things better

1. It does world gen better with the towns, castles, villages and other sites. Just tell me that DF is better than that http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/12/13/castle-generation/ and http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/12/13/castle-generation/ and http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/11/30/democracy-castles-pathfinding-sigils-bugfixing/
2. Conversations are way better in URR - http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2016/06/05/dialects-the-technical-side/
3. It does AI a lot, lot better. Really, see for yourselves - http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2016/04/24/the-final-ai-update/ and http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2016/03/20/more-ai-of-course/ and http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2016/03/28/the-antepenultimate-ai-update/
4. It does ideologies better - http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/11/14/the-physicality-of-ideology/
5. It does trading routes better - http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/10/25/important-npcs-part-iv/

And he did that all in a couple of years. Sure, DF is better in general, it has its great fortress mode, but the world will soon seem very old and primitive compared to that. As a roguelike, I believe that it will make adv mode obsolete very soon if he keeps up the pace.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Ultima Ratio Regum has ASCII graphics but it might be more succesful than DF because it does MANY things better

1. It does world gen better with the towns, castles, villages and other sites. Just tell me that DF is better than that http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/12/13/castle-generation/ and http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/12/13/castle-generation/ and http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/11/30/democracy-castles-pathfinding-sigils-bugfixing/
2. Conversations are way better in URR - http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2016/06/05/dialects-the-technical-side/
3. It does AI a lot, lot better. Really, see for yourselves - http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2016/04/24/the-final-ai-update/ and http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2016/03/20/more-ai-of-course/ and http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2016/03/28/the-antepenultimate-ai-update/
4. It does ideologies better - http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/11/14/the-physicality-of-ideology/
5. It does trading routes better - http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/10/25/important-npcs-part-iv/

And he did that all in a couple of years. Sure, DF is better in general, it has its great fortress mode, but the world will soon seem very old and primitive compared to that. As a roguelike, I believe that it will make adv mode obsolete very soon if he keeps up the pace.

Um...It plans to do all that better and doesn't actually do any of it yet except the buildings and moving npcs that are currently in closed testing (limited to workers moving around the world according to their daily schedules - something DF hasn't begun to work on yet in any significant way - oh, also delayed by many months meaning the schedule is a heck of a lot longer than a "couple of years" - the project is cited as a "10 year project".)

Dwarf Fortress also plans to have better conversations and do lots of things better, you know.

[Ekaton]

I must partially agree with Cormack here - while DF is better all the way, it will soon only work that well as a fortress game, because in this area it is still unparalleled, while the adv mode might lose its edge if the world would look much better and convincing in URR, with much better AI and richer lore, and I doubt that thieves and artifacts planned for the nearest release alone will change that.

From the marketing perspective URR does several things very well too:
- The blog is updated very oftenly, keeping players hyped and informed.
- He knows that all those advanced features won't make his game interesting without a convincing world first. He has it all planned very well - he now has superior sites, individual buildings and convincing AI. The game needs to make you feel like you are part of a living world, and URR seems to do that very well, from what we can tell from those posts.
- Only after creating a convincing world will URR receive more gameplay content, and when it will, I am afraid that it might just become the most complex roguelike instead of DF, while DF would retain the title of the most advanced fort building game. Sad, but unfortunately probable.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Sad, but unfortunately probable.

It's..."sad" that more than one person in the entire world is working on fantastic solo projects with vision that seek to push forward procedural generation to new extremes without caring about "photo realistic virtual reality awesomeness"? What an odd outlook to have. Pretty sure the makers of these programmes would intensely disagree with you.

It's not at all "sad" that programmers would seek to make better projects than Dwarf Fortress. Well, except for those people who refuse to play anything else I suppose.

[Ekaton]

Sad, but unfortunately probable.

It's..."sad" that more than one person in the entire world is working on fantastic solo projects with vision that seek to push forward procedural generation to new extremes without caring about "photo realistic virtual reality awesomeness"? What an odd outlook to have. Pretty sure the makers of these programmes would intensely disagree with you.

It's not at all "sad" that programmers would seek to make better projects than Dwarf Fortress. Well, except for those people who refuse to play anything else I suppose.

I didn't mean that it is bad that someone else is working on something great, it is just generally sad to see something that someone worked very hard for years to create to become surpassed by something else, and it would have been sad for me to see DF declining because other games do it better, because I watched it develop and played it for many years now and I deeply respect Toady for amout of work he has put into this.

EDIT: Anyway, let's stick the point of how DF can be made more attractive and approachable for new players, and do you believe that it is even beneficial for the DF community.

[Chase]

I don't think this game is losing popularity. Do you OP?

[Ekaton]

I don't think this game is losing popularity. Do you OP?

I have never said so, I just think that it could have been more popular if it had better graphics and was presented differently, in a way that would be more convincing for potential players.

As to URR, I just meant that from the marketing point of view it is good to have a world that seems realistic, and if what we can see on URR blog is indeed true, it stands a good chance of being more attractive as a roguelike than DF's adventure mode in the future, provided that they would deliver promised world's depth and lore as they present them - better communication, laws, different political systems and their influences, languages and dialects, trade routes and some other things.

[Vattic]

URR is offering something very different from DF from what I gather. It's going to be a story driven mystery game with a time limit. I don't even think combat is much of a focus.