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Author Topic: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread  (Read 23193 times)

Shadowlord

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2016, 09:32:08 pm »

The only defense against gun violence is to put roadblocks in the way of what would otherwise become an impulse turned into the permanence of someone's death.

Or equip the entire country with bulletproof full-body armor, I guess.
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<Dakkan> There are human laws, and then there are laws of physics. I don't bike in the city because of the second.
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Frumple

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2016, 09:45:01 pm »

Y'know, I'm pretty sure I've actually recommend that course of action a few times. Do have to wonder what the costs involved would be, though... I could almost swear someone on B12 actually back-of-napkin style crunched the numbers at some point. It'd be an interesting project regardless, especially accounting for younger people and changing body shapes.
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Rolan7

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2016, 10:13:41 pm »

Well...
Plus in the US it is legal to buy armor piercing bullets.
:P
Of course, I personally don't know that that's true, and I'm too busy partying to look it up.
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Solifuge

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2016, 10:14:43 pm »

Thought experiments can be fun, but Body Armor For All is as insane a proposal as "It Wouldn't Be A Problem If Everyone Had Guns". When gun proliferation has reached a point that it's advocates propose treating civilian spaces as a warzone as a solution, it's pretty apparent their priorities lie with continuing gun proliferation over human lives.

Think I have to check out of this thread. Too pissed about this, and about the dissociated way people tend to talk about mass shootings, and how people talk but don't take action. On the off chance you read this, take the time you'd spend replying, or crunching numbers on a funny thought experiment, and call or email or sign a petition to send to your Senator.

Take some kind of action, please. We can stop this shit, and we need to. All of us need to.

EDIT: Here's a link to check how each US State's Senator voted regarding background check laws at the end of last year, including links to email or otherwise contact them if you live somewhere that voted against them.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:29:04 pm by Solifuge »
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Rolan7

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2016, 10:19:36 pm »

Yeah we'll just stop people from murdering for their religion by "taking action" which is pretty much exactly what they want, because it drives their recruitment

I know you're not saying "kill teh muslims" at all, but gun control isn't going to stop them either...  dunno what "action" you want us to "take" here.

Related, I don't mind that the discussion hasn't been about gays.  Because it wouldn't be any more effective.  But it's kinda weird that I had to tune in to NPR to learn that the victims were mostly cuban.  Makes sense in retrospect, and doesn't really change anything "solution"-wise, but I don't think anyone has mentioned that at all?

Edit:  Not actually trying to start any shit, just...  I don't think there's anything we can do to stop terrorism, really.  One determined shithead with a tenth of a brain can kill a lot of people.  To stop that, you'd really need a Orwellian nightmare.  And being angry at their vague "group" just feeds the terrorists.

Religion is still at the root of this, though.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 10:29:24 pm by Rolan7 »
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Reelya

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2016, 10:27:17 pm »

In Melbourne the drug gangs have home-made shotguns which are basically a handheld piece of steel pipe which fire exactly 1 shot. They are traded for "a few hundred dollars". The police have confiscated a pile of them, but none of them have been discharged in a crime. I'm guessing because they cost $300+ per shot. And the police have actually said they're most concerned for the people who have these things killing themselves, more than the chance that they'll kill other people.

Meanwhile in Birmingham in the UK, criminals have turned to using 19th century firearms to commit crimes. The article lists them as "shared" guns. What that means is that there's actually a very small pool of these weapons shared or traded among many gangs. Wasn't there that story of a gang war in the UK where both gangs were renting the same gun from a broker to take shots at each other?

ChairmanPoo

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2016, 10:32:57 pm »

hard to go on a shooting spree with either. Even with Blackbeard tactics
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Shadowlord

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2016, 10:38:28 pm »

Yeah we'll just stop people from murdering for their religion by "taking action" which is pretty much exactly what they want, because it drives their recruitment

p. sure he meant:
call or email or sign a petition to send to your Senator.

Personally I think voting the republicans out of office might work better, but then we'd also have to somehow convince the democrats that banning pistol grips and flash suppressors seems a somewhat ineffective way to solve the problem.

Also most deaths come from pistols anyways, and I'm not sure if banning those is even possible as long as the second amendment exists. (I remember reading about a court case where a city's ban was ruled unconstitutional.)

I mean, unless you think you can convince your republican representatives and senators that a strict reading of the second amendment in line with their strict constructionist philosophy would require that all gun owners be required to be part of a state-run militia. Or that people only have the right to bear arms which existed when the 2nd amendment was written.
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Morrigi

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2016, 10:49:46 pm »

The Supreme Court has unanimously held that  “the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding,”. http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf

It's pretty non-negotiable.
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Rolan7

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #129 on: June 14, 2016, 10:54:37 pm »

Yeah we'll just stop people from murdering for their religion by "taking action" which is pretty much exactly what they want, because it drives their recruitment

p. sure he meant:
call or email or sign a petition to send to your Senator.
I know but, what do you demand that your senator *do*?
Solifuge would probably say "Ban these types of guns".  But that doesn't stop terrorists like... at all.  Based on Europe.
It might significantly decrease criminal and domestic shootings, yeah.  I don't know.  But I'm pretty sure someone pointed out that the major European shootings were done with illegal firearms.

Yeah this gun was legal, so it was a bit easier for the... guy.  But it's not the kind of obstacle that can stop a determined attacker.

I'm just despairing a bit I guess.  But this talk about gun legality feels like barely relevant hot air, and I guess I'm annoyed that it's dominated basically the entire thread.  It's not just unproductive, it's irrelevant.

/drunk
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

chaoticag

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #130 on: June 14, 2016, 10:55:36 pm »

The Supreme Court has unanimously held that  “the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding,”. http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10078_aplc.pdf

It's pretty non-negotiable.

The problem is when even basic research cannot be carried over it through the CDC. Besides, people are a lot less liable to respect the law if they feel it's slowly chocking them and their loved ones to death.
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Frumple

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2016, 12:19:31 am »

Think I have to check out of this thread. Too pissed about this, and about the dissociated way people tend to talk about mass shootings, and how people talk but don't take action. On the off chance you read this, take the time you'd spend replying, or crunching numbers on a funny thought experiment, and call or email or sign a petition to send to your Senator.
... yeah, on the off chance you read this, I'd rather spend the time talking to people than talking to a wall (bloody rubio) or the choir (nelson, district's congresscritter). Do what I can on a local level to talk to folks (which admittedly isn't much, because strongly trying to advocate on such issues would be a good way to end up in the hospital in this hellpit), convince 'em that there's reasons to consider maybe supporting legislation and whatnot that'd help, but so far as politician outreach goes, for my area, the ones that have any meaningful influence are either already on board with basically everything that could help out, or they're actively trying to make things worse. There's not really any in between. Prefer to get my political activism in through day to day stuff, m'self, regardless. First step t'making the change is being the change, et al -- half the reason I never got around to applying for that concealed carry permit was because the training for it was a fucking joke, ferex. Too broke and broken to do much else.

Will admit to be fairly disassociated from it all at this point, though, even though there's good odds I either had friends nearby, or said friends did. S'the fucking USA, if I still got tore up every time fifty people died from gun violence, in one go or not, I'd probably just shoot myself to make it end. Florida alone, that's in the ballpark of about every second or third week* (which has been roughly true since the day I was goddamn born, and it's been a long fucking time since I first noticed it), nevermind the suicides and fatal accidents, and I'm afraid I'm not the sort to be less bothered by 'em spread out. Mass shootings actually tend to bother me less, t'be honest, for all the attention they draw means it's easier to talk about or around 'em. They kill a lot fewer people, and it's a hell of a lot easier to get people to give two shits about them.

Keeping some distance from it also helps keep from worrying about old friends I have no way to contact that were near the area of this particular slaughter, so you'll have to excuse it if it's been bothering you. People cope and react in different ways, et al. Don't assume disassociation or idle discussion means a lack of concern or effort. Know it can be pretty easy to get pissed by encountering them, and that's fair, just don't brush off the whys of it, yeah?

... not just a funny thought experiment, though. Having an idea of the logistical scale of doing direct stuff about this shit isn't exactly pure fun and games. Particular one you're incensed with is roughly in the same ballpark as universal psych screening, even if neither's feasible to any meaningful degree. Estimating the fiscal burden involved with something like that can actually help frame the less direct methods (and the logistical necessity of 'em), y'ken? Even when it's rough. Similar such "funny thought experiments" were a fairly notable reason I started tracking as hard towards gun control as I have, personally. Can help t'realize what has to be done when y'have a decent idea of by just what sort of margins other things can't be.
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Shadowlord

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2016, 01:47:36 am »

But I'm pretty sure someone pointed out that the major European shootings were done with illegal firearms.

Europe has also had open borders between EU countries, and lacks the ginormous ocean separating it from Syria which America has, and ISIL had taken over a syrian ID manufacturing facility, so they had a whole trifecta going for them there as far as getting agents to targets in Europe. (Not to mention the jurisdictional and language issues that belgium has with no overarching agency in command of all security stuff in the whole of belgium)

(It was Belgium, right? I search for belgium in news and only get sports for some reason. Probably because what I'm looking for isn't news anymore.)

We, on the other hand, have oceans, a lengthy process for refugees to come over from Syria with very limited numbers being accepted, multiple federal agencies which are obsessed with security... We have different problems. ISIL has been able to convert and radicalize people who were never even muslims. (I would find a citation but it's almost 3 am)
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Sheb

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2016, 02:13:22 am »

Neither the Paris nor the Brussels bombers were Syrian refugees.
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Erkki

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Re: 2016 Orlando Shooting Discussion Thread
« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2016, 03:13:01 am »

If someone really goes for home made guns, forget about centerfire rifles: they are doable but need a lot of tools, materials and experience. Fail and you have the potential to lose your eyes at the first shot. The most trivial part is driving to nearest range and grabbing brass casings of the caliber of your choice for reloading. After that you meet a huge cliff if you cant buy anything. Consult the Pakistanis.

Rimfires have lower pressure and lead is enough to contain it in the barrel ie. copper jacket isn't needed for the bullets. Nor quite as precise machining.

Shotgun shells you can shoot out of a backyard watering rubber hose. Literally. Problem is "just" in getting the cases and primers, and something to hit the primer with... Blackpowder works, and you can use nails, sausages or Play-Doh modeling compound for projectiles.

Or you could just build a bomb.
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