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Author Topic: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!  (Read 90516 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #255 on: June 12, 2017, 04:01:10 am »
PSV= Pre Set Values. The horrible World Editor built into DF's advanced world gen (as well as my slightly less horrible Tweakmap tool) allows you to specify 6 basic parameters for each world tile (Elevation, Rainfall, Volcanism, Savagery, Drainage, Temperature). An advanced world gen entry can contain these to specify the layout of the world on general. All of these parameters, eccept Volcanism, affect the biome generation, but for some reason Salinity is not among these parameters.
A world generated normally (i.e. without PSVs) generally does not allow you to control where good/evil shows up because the controls will only provide precise control if the good/evil/neutral specifications match small/medium/large regions exactly, and in a normal world you'll typically have multiple regions of each type.
It's technically possible to write a tool that would allow you change the evilness value associated with each region, and if you suspended DF's history generation early on and tweaked these it may or may not affect future generation (but the original civ locations remain fixed, of course). I suspect it might even be possible to write something that could suspend DF world generation as soon as the evilness values had been allocated to allow you to change them, but I doubt there is any DFHack support for such a breakout insertion (and I'm not sure you'd like to go through that manual tweaking process for every world generation, only to have the world rejected either by DF or you because it's unsuitable).
Your best bet to give regions the evilness values you're interested in is to make a PSV defined world with careful selection of region sizes. In your case, I would guess the region types you'd like to be evil are probably medium sized rather than large. Specifying large evil region tile counts sufficiently high to match multiple regions will increase the chances of one of those being of the desired type.
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Demetrious

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #256 on: June 12, 2017, 12:43:59 pm »
I've been hoping to milk 43.05 dry of it's last bits of !!FUN!! before the next version drops an exciting load of utterly madcap bugs on us to enjoy, but I've had a lot of trouble getting sufficient necromancer towers to spawn. It's not a matter of finding a tower, so much as ensuring that a goodly number spawn, thus increasing my chances of finding one in the "sweet spot;" a decent embark site with the usual goodies (flux, iron, sand + clay,) plus all four usual neighbors (elves, humans, goblins, oh my.)

Getting more towers to generate alone isn't that hard, in addition to what's already been discussed in the thread there's a world with 40+ towers on the wiki's example worldgen page - but it's got no elves in it, and I'm hoping to try The Veggie Smoker soon. Even without the tower requirement I've consistently had problems with neighbors - good embark sites are easy to find, but far fewer provide a decent spectrum of playmates - or playmates close enough to siege on a regular basis. My go-to assumption is that more civs and/or more civ sites increase the chances of them being close - and perhaps, indirectly, increase the chances of them going to war, which leads to more necromancers (as someone mentioned earlier in this thread.) So I've whittled it down to the following:

  • Generate smaller worlds - less chance of civilizations being spread out.
  • Adjust evil parameters to get more smaller evil subregions spread around evenly, rather than the singe huge contiguous regions. I think Goblins are only placed in evil regions, so that seems to determine their distribution.
  • Use the World Painter to control otherwise extreme mountain range proliferation - quite often a good site (or the vicinity of a tower) is isolated from civilizations due to mountain ranges being everywhere and blocking civ army pathing.
  • Same as above, but for oceans/islands.
  • Use the world painter more, to try and control biome layout a bit - get a more even mix of mountain ranges (that spawn dwarf civs) near forests and plains, for humans, elves and goblins (in the case of evil regions.)
  • Ask someone who knows what the hell they're doing, first.

I'd rather implement this with weighted ranges rather than the world painter - I'm just trying to skew the RNG a bit, rather than hand-craft perfect sites everywhere - but the guts of worldgen are rather intimidating. Till I read about the minimum squares count issue in the prior thread, I had completely given up on weighted ranges.

What approach should I be taking, here?
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Quote from: Kishmond on April 14, 2009, 07:14:17 am
I like the fact we are seriously discussing how to drop dwarfs off towers using  kittens as cushions.

PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #257 on: June 12, 2017, 04:48:57 pm »
I'd say your wishes are contradictory, so the balance has to be just right.
- Much fighting: probably results in more towers, but also in a larger risk/chance of races being eliminated (with elves particularly vulnerable).
- Goblins are the only ones that tolerate evil regions, and they have a weak preference for evil regions, but when trying to get them to spawn where they should, they rather frequently crash in on the humies instead, in particular if there's more than one goblin civ. Goblins can live everywhere except in good regions, mountains, or ocean, but they can't handle high savagery.
- Humans can only spawn on plains (hilly or flat), can't handle either high savagery, good, or evil.
- Elves can only spawn in forests and have a slightly higher tolerance for savagery than other races. They can tolerate good regions, but I don't think they can spawn in them.
- Dwarves need mountains/hills bordering mountains, and have low tolerance for savagery. They can't spawn in good/evil regions.
- Kobolds need mountain caves. I assume they can't handle good, evil, or high savagery.
- A small world with lots of fighting means there's a big risk of at least one race kicking the bucket, as there's nowhere to hide.

I make my worlds based on PSVs and adjusted advanced parameters to make sure I get what I want. You can also limit the number of dwarven and/or goblin civs if you want them to be placed precisely (I want to play dead civs without the goblins wiping the tree huggers out (and wipe out/get wiped out by the humies), so I have one dwarven civ and one goblin civ, with lots of humies and elves. The goblins are separated from the rest (well, they share the areas with the temporarily present dwarves) by a single tile wide "ocean". I then embark on an ocean world tile (where there's land), and this creates a bridge that connect the two sides. I then retire that fortress and embark on the real one which has been carefully prepared in terms of biomes.

A method I used before using PSVs was to generate a world that looked reasonable geographically and then keep generating worlds based on the basic SEED, randomizing the rest of the seeds.
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Salkryn

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #258 on: June 12, 2017, 10:47:54 pm »
Hey, could anybody help me with building a world that will give me an embark with the following criteria:

All races present, dwarf civ that isn't dead or dying.
Tower near embark
LOTS of beasts, megabeasts, forgotten beasts, and titans
High savagery
An abundance of minerals, particularly coal, iron, and flux for a solid steel industry
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Demetrious

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #259 on: June 13, 2017, 01:12:30 pm »
Quote from: PatrikLundell on June 12, 2017, 04:48:57 pm
<information>

Thank you. Understanding how world-gen impacts civs has been the hardest thing for me to get a grasp on, and as you point out, my wishes are contradictory, so I've really got to cut things fine to get it to work. I managed to find what I wanted with a mostly default worldgen (just tweaking minerals and cavern parameters to fit) and noticed said world has a decent number of towers... and exactly as you said, it was the result of fighting that really cost a particular race. Fortunately, in my game it was the goblins - at least one population of them have been stomped so badly that there's only one or two survivors in bandit camps, and another has lost to humans so badly that they only have one fortress left under their control, and humans own the rest of their previous digs. Fortunately, that works fine for this game, because of the bug that populates goblin fortresses with thousands of units; they'll have plenty to send to attack me anyway.

For the next version I'll try replicating these results (without the gobbo bug) by increasing number of civs a bit and using the world painter to see them get spread out a bit better; with the racial population spread out amongst more civs (and wars still respecting diplomatic lines) then fewer sites should change hands during history-gen.

I think.

Quote from: Salkryn on June 12, 2017, 10:47:54 pm
Hey, could anybody help me with building a world that will give me an embark with the following criteria:

All races present, dwarf civ that isn't dead or dying.
Tower near embark
LOTS of beasts, megabeasts, forgotten beasts, and titans
High savagery
An abundance of minerals, particularly coal, iron, and flux for a solid steel industry

That describes my current fort almost exactly. I ended up setting up on a coastline - yes, you have a multi-layer aquifer, but the coastal biome doesn't have one, and that lets you dig down on the beach to bypass the aquifer and attack it from below (with minecarts + magma, punching staircases through aquifers is pretty simple these days.) If you want more minerals than I've got (plenty of hematite,) you could just turn up minerals a bit in worldgen and use the same seeds (I used 2000 as my value, but something like 1700 or 1500 will have ore coming out of your ears.) The world is still in the Age of Myth, so there's plenty of megabeasts on the prowl. The only thing I don't have on this map is coal.

There was a few other likely sites within shouting distance, if you're interested I can post the worldgen files and mark up the map for you. Or you could use PatrickLundell's suggestion:

Quote
A method I used before using PSVs was to generate a world that looked reasonable geographically and then keep generating worlds based on the basic SEED, randomizing the rest of the seeds.

This map has several great embark points on the left-most continent that were a no-go simply because the goblins had been almost entirely wiped out there (but there was a tower in range;) so running the same world with a different history seed a few times should find you a location worth having. Once you've got the geography down a lot rides on the history generation, vis a vis neighbors, towers, etc.
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Quote from: Kishmond on April 14, 2009, 07:14:17 am
I like the fact we are seriously discussing how to drop dwarfs off towers using  kittens as cushions.

Ggobs

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #260 on: June 13, 2017, 02:08:52 pm »
ptw
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Quote from: Man of Paper on February 29, 2016, 03:51:37 pm
Just popping in to say that if DF has taught me anything, it's that everything is doomed.

Galaxyfalcon

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #261 on: June 15, 2017, 01:48:11 pm »
Quote from: PatrikLundell on June 12, 2017, 04:01:10 am
PSV= Pre Set Values. The horrible World Editor built into DF's advanced world gen (as well as my slightly less horrible Tweakmap tool) allows you to specify 6 basic parameters for each world tile (Elevation, Rainfall, Volcanism, Savagery, Drainage, Temperature). An advanced world gen entry can contain these to specify the layout of the world on general. All of these parameters, eccept Volcanism, affect the biome generation, but for some reason Salinity is not among these parameters.

This is a bit of a "I'm too afraid to ask" kind of question, but is the world editor your referencing the advanced parameters in the advanced world generation, or is there another menu that I'm somehow missing in DF inside the advanced world generation menu (like world painter)?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #262 on: June 15, 2017, 04:52:49 pm »
World Editor = World Painter, reached via Design New World with Advanced Parameters-e(nter advanced parameters)-p(Set Preset Field Values).
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scourge728

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #263 on: June 15, 2017, 08:47:06 pm »
Quote from: Demetrious on June 13, 2017, 01:12:30 pm
That describes my current fort almost exactly. I ended up setting up on a coastline - yes, you have a multi-layer aquifer, but the coastal biome doesn't have one, and that lets you dig down on the beach to bypass the aquifer and attack it from below (with minecarts + magma, punching staircases through aquifers is pretty simple these days.) If you want more minerals than I've got (plenty of hematite,) you could just turn up minerals a bit in worldgen and use the same seeds (I used 2000 as my value, but something like 1700 or 1500 will have ore coming out of your ears.) The world is still in the Age of Myth, so there's plenty of megabeasts on the prowl. The only thing I don't have on this map is coal.

There was a few other likely sites within shouting distance, if you're interested I can post the worldgen files and mark up the map for you.

This map has several great embark points on the left-most continent that were a no-go simply because the goblins had been almost entirely wiped out there (but there was a tower in range;) so running the same world with a different history seed a few times should find you a location worth having. Once you've got the geography down a lot rides on the history generation, vis a vis neighbors, towers, etc.

I would like these files
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #264 on: June 18, 2017, 02:05:56 pm »
Quote from: PatrikLundell on June 12, 2017, 04:48:57 pm
I'd say your wishes are contradictory, so the balance has to be just right.
Yeah, though requests of that type are not uncommon. Managed to get something like it:

1x1 flat and thin - 19 z to magma - 1-cavern embark (with some cavern water):

Land biomes: 3
Mirthful Temperate Grassland: 2z Aquifer, Fire Clay
Joyous Tropical Grassland: 2z Aquifer, Clay, Flux
Terrifying Tropical Dry Broadleaf Forest: 1z Aquifer, Sand
......Not reanimating, localized knockout+rot dust - safe if treated.

Air-only biomes:
Untamed Desert
Joyous Tropical Shrubland. Unicorns possible.
Joyous Tropical Savanna
Untamed Tropical Swamp
Untamed Tundra - seen by snow-covered treetops at embark, and only just cold enough for year-long frozen water. Ice traps?

The location of spiderwebs and the location of air biomes are random at embark. You can plant appropriate seeds (can be brought by humans, adventurers or migrants from previous forts who were carrying them at the time of retiring) and build floors to map edge to let appropriate animals enter.
(Expect for river fish creatures/hippos. You'll see them at start, or not at all.)

Spoiler: Embark has all metals but aluminium & bismuth, as well as flux, lignite, sand, kaolinite, fire and regular clay. Also optimized for rock crystals. (click to show/hide)
Neighbours:
Π - 10,3k + 2,5k trolls, beak dogs and ogres each, led by a farting lizard.
⛭ -  1:2 human:goblin ratio. Individual visitors will be typically human, troupes mostly goblin. Caravan may bring a masterwork.
I - 20 on embark, 80 total if that's not enough, all created by a single necromancer - who unfortunately is out of range. Steel in first siege for me.
¶ - 637, elves and some birdmen, though note to fourth most distant at 468 split between non-humans.
Bronze Colossus Iskak Bladeblazed - 2885 kills.
Hydra Obruk Judgedgoals - 789 kills. Megabeasts can't swim during worldgen, and he was popped into desert. Titans are set to visit at 20 pop, here, but there aren't any.
No keas - None of the 8 biomes permit them.

Spoiler: Siege arrival location (click to show/hide)

Dwarven civs
The Immortal Helm - at war with goblins, host world's only library and holds 2 sites + 2 camps with total of 1021 people, mostly non-dwarven, though dwarven nobility. Can bring cut gren
The Bust of Heaviness - hold 8 sites, 1172 people, almost all dwarves. Both civs can make high boots.

Night creatures:
Weres - yes, including badgers and gophers.
Vamps - no, but possible.
No bogeymen.
No night trolls.
All curses done by either Kazis or Wur Topsearched the Mighty Controllers in ⛭.

Populations:
Though all plants are growable, only 78,67% are listed in region-pops.
However, mussels as well as cave dragons, unicorns and giant cave spiders, rhinos, polar bears, alligators, tortoises and desert tortoises are listed, among other creatures.

Spoiler: First half of parameters! (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 11:46:41 am by Fleeting Frames »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #265 on: June 18, 2017, 02:06:28 pm »
Spoiler: Second half of parameters (click to show/hide)
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grenedle

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #266 on: June 27, 2017, 01:08:26 am »
I want to make a Medium sized world very similar to what Salkryn wants, but I also want many different biomes close together (at the local level of the embark screen).

I've recently been playing in a world generated using a modified version of the parameters from the following reddit conversation (btw how do I make a link that doesn't show the whole url?) https://www.reddit.com/r/dfworldgen/comments/524i8b/lots_of_small_biomes/

Here is the version I use
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From what I've seen this is pretty good regarding what I want but I was wondering if it could be better. I modified to have less volcanoes (so that there would be more iron ore), normal amounts of civilizations, semi-/megabeasts and titans (so that I could modify it to what I wanted), and the pole set to North only.

I was also wondering, If I am able to get parameters that create the many biomes, and I change variables that don't effect the surface environment (eg monster/civilization amounts, cavern variables), will that affect the surface biomes that are generated?

I use the LNP set to stop aquifers, if that helps/changes anything.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #267 on: June 27, 2017, 04:39:38 am »
The post above yours is what I consider best I've gotten with vanilla - without booby prices like "all races present, but their closest sites are dark pits/hamlets/ǐs, not maxed out ¶/⛭/Π" - otherwise, there's the 206 civ gen (in pocket world tho) on page 8. (I could improve on that now; enable humans and elves to get major sites, possibly make the NW corner isolated and see if game favours placing the excess megabeasts in 0,0 there - but not enough to fix this issue; not without embarking at least once on ocean.)

However, for non-vanilla possibilities, recently discussed the partial plant and animal coverage with PatrikLundell (also, hey, elves can totally spawn in good biomes - the above gen is an example), and modified his plant populating script for animals. Ran during worldgen, if a region doesn't have given species, it adds 8 to 16 animals per fitting biome of that species into region's population's.

Spoiler: animaldiversity.lua (click to show/hide)

Hilariously, semis and full megabeasts are considered wild animals for this script with biome being "all land", and will appear on maps without announcement when used (one at once normally, but you could edit the raws to change that - one of the issues with monster island gens is that once the initial fighting dies down you'll get megabeasts at normal-ish rate). When used as worldgen is in-process, they'll slowly get noticed - you'll likely go into age of myth next year - but most will remain in the wild. However, I can't recommend this over running it right before accepting a world, for I've gotten a crash with errorlog message on bronze colossus path failure (though this sort of message is common with dwarves) - I've added a parameter check when it only adds them when ran as "animaldiversity megas".

(To use, paste into animaldiversity.lua file in df/hack/scripts, then type animaldiversity into dfhack.)

As for your questions, yes. Local geography will remain the same, but most changes that mess with caverns and civilizations are also capable of messing with available plant and animal populations. However, note that placing caves for kobolds can mess with geography.

Aquifers don't affect anything during worldgen - the sites currently 'cheat' by ignoring/bypassing them, though aquifers in mountains are uncommon in the first place.

Also, the presence of sedimentary layers is not crowded by volcanoes, but by volcanism - though they're correlated in that volcanoes require a square of 100 volcanism to spawn or you'll get rejected...

PS: use
Code: [Select]
[url="link"]text[/url] tags.

It's possible to get half-dozen+ different biomes and other biome-based things all in an embark, but it might be faster to use PatrikLundell's tools, like region manipulator in particular.

July Edit: Added adding vermin populations handling to above code, though somewhat useless with biomemanipulator.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 10:46:15 am by Fleeting Frames »
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grenedle

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #268 on: June 27, 2017, 01:02:00 pm »
I haven't seen the PS_[etc] parameters before. Are they part of the vanilla game, or is that from a mod?

Are the geomanipulator and regionmanipulator tools updated for the most recent version of DF?

If I change parameters that would affect the world's geography, would places like the location you specified still be common?

Quote from: Demetrious on June 12, 2017, 12:43:59 pm
I've been hoping to milk 43.05 dry of it's last bits of !!FUN!! before the next version drops an exciting load of utterly madcap bugs on us to enjoy...

Is the next version of DF going to be released soon?
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #269 on: June 27, 2017, 02:53:43 pm »
PS_[etc] are pre-set values, which are part of vanilla game. Go into advanced world gen, and press p to enter them. Using them you can set the region level savagery, volcanism, elevation, rainfall, drainage or temperature values of a tile. Unfortunately, they need to be set for each tile you want to use, hence tools like PerfectWorld (example world image) and tweakmap. vjek has a neat tutorial

PatrikLundell's scripts are scripts - I expect they'll likely work with any DF2014+ version currently available. However, mind that 42.06, 43.03, 43.05 32-bit and 43.05 64-bit all generate (subtly) different worlds; even if you get same geography you can get different history.

If you change the world's geography, you may change everything that comes after it - pre-set values constrain this, but even the smallest changes I've seen has moved rivers at least 5 local map tiles, with usual effect being erasing their existence entirely in favour of different ones. However, it doesn't seem to always change things - I've increased elevation in one place without it affecting rivers in another place sometimes.

I've seen figures ranging from end of July to November. Over a month, definitely.

PS: Added a parameter "megas" check into the above script without which it excludes megabeasts and procedurals, then confirmed adding ogres to gobbos when used before their placement during world gen.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:57:54 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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