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Author Topic: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!  (Read 90472 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2016, 02:04:34 am »
I often run into the situation that I gen a world, look at it early, like what I see and find a nice embark, then regenerate that world and let it run its full history course, only to find my intended embark is no longer savage (other biome adjustments can have happened as well, but the savagery loss is the significant part). Is there a way to block the deterioration, or at least reduce the risk for it?

I can also mention that I've found several cases of the dwarven civ being BOTH at war with the goblins AND completely dead (i.e. empty civ screen on embark). So that's another indication that isn't trustworthy.

@Chief 10:
For reasonably consistent results you need to use the quirky world painter. You'd then physically separate the goblins from the dwarves using e.g. water and have all mountain terrain (where dwarves can start) on one side and goblins on the other. Goblins prefer evil, so you can use the method described further up in this thread to ensure the goblin side of the water hosts the goblins. If that area is at savagery of 100 except for one tile with a lower savagery (probably no more than 60) the goblin fortress will be placed there often/almost always. The placement of the goblin fortress is important because if placement is random, there's a high probability the goblin site closest to your embark will be a small one with less than 100 goblins, only good for a few sieges (all sieges are sent from the same site, usually/always the closest one) before running out of goblin power.
This also implies you need to know where your embark is going to be beforehand so you can "sculpt" it.
Finally, if vjek's going to be able to fulfill your wishes, you need to be more explicit: "cool features" means different things to different people. A volcano of some sort? A magnificent, FPS draining waterfall in a deep canyon?
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YetAnotherLurker

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2016, 04:10:07 am »
Ok, so I've been fiddling with the advanced world generator, and I think I've got it mostly figured out. However, I can't seem to get it to consistently produce more "patchwork" worlds. I want to try an embark with two or more drastically different biomes, preferably a good bordering a reanimating evil, and I'm having some trouble either producing or finding such a site consistently. I'm less interested in an already-generated world than I am in what kinds of settings will tend to produce such sites. Any more experienced worldgen cooks mind sharing your insights?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2016, 04:35:16 am »
Good/Evil should be possible to place with a reasonable degree of certainty if you use the trick vjek explained a bit up this thread:
Make e.g. the Evil biome the only one in the world that's Large and set the minimum large evil square count to at least 1, with small and medium set to 0. Similarly, make the Good biome the only one that's Medium and set the minimum medium good square count to at least 1 (with the others set to 0). You can of course use other variation of that formula. Note that "biomes" are larger than just the tiles of the same parameters. A connected area of any kinds of forests of varying temperature seems to form a single biome, for instance.

Drastically different actual biomes is probably more difficult, since everything is smoothed at the edges. Also, I don't know if the variances and meshes have any effect on world painted worlds.
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YetAnotherLurker

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2016, 04:57:40 am »
I honestly don't understand how vjek's setting the number of good/evil biomes, though. I haven't messed around much with the PSVs, as that just doesn't feel natural enough, is that what he's using?

I'm less concerned with making, for example, good/evil possible, than making it relatively common, so that I don't need to do repeated worldgens to find an interesting site. My laptop doesn't handle worldgen terribly well, and I like playing with Fortress Defense II, so even short histories tend to take a while to generate due to the sheer number of civilizations.

Also, an odd thing happened in a couple of my other sites. I usually use DFHack's reveal to see if there's any interesting geology, and found what appeared to be an empty magma tube extending between the first and second caverns, but not continuing further down. On another site, I found a similar empty magma tube running between the second and third caverns, but with a candy cane extending up into the lower levels of it. Furthermore, the sections that were within the boundaries of the empty tube itself were not composed of candy, but of "Unknown material/empty space" or something similar. It looks as though the candy cane generated, then the empty tube, which overwrote it without telling it what to be made of? Unfortunately, I lost those worlds to a mistake in modding, so I didn't get a chance to try digging it out to see what happens.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2016, 05:09:18 am »
Quote from: Chief10 on July 01, 2016, 04:59:49 pm
Hey guys, just coming back into the game from a long break. I know you must get this all the time, but I'm looking for a small world with large goblin populations, which will attack me, often. Only other requirement is that the world/site has iron, preferably with a healthy dwarf civ.

It would also be cool if there was a site with cool topography, high minerals, no flowing water, no aquifers, but with water in the caverns. All this is just gravy though :)

Every time I try to gen such a world, my dwarf civ is dying, or everything seems fine but then I never get more than 0-1 sieges.

Any help (or a point in the right direction) would be greatly appreciated
I fulfilled most (whoops on aquifer) of the requirements in 42.06 here. (They're save-compatible, but worldgens are different between the versions and I haven't DLed new dfhack and ver yet :p)

PatrickLundall: The savagery detoration is caused by nearby civs, I bet - they seem to bring it down in preparation of building a new site, even if they can't actually build a site in, say, ocean.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 05:12:07 am by Fleeting Frames »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2016, 05:39:52 am »
Fleeting Frames aquifer ought to be removed if played without aquifers, I guess?

You need to use the world painter (-> the PSV:s) to place the biomes for the good/evil square count magic to work. I guess it MIGHT be possible to generate a world and then regenerate it with the same seeds once the biomes have been figured out, but most of the time you won't end up with a single biome in each category. Note that good/evil cannot be painted: they have to be influenced indirectly via the square counts.

You might use the strategy of generating vanilla worlds to find sites you like, and then regenerate the worlds with the same basic seed, as that one locks down the geography (although mods might affect that, of course).

Sometimes caverns are connected to each other via tunnels (the same kind that can connect a surface cave to the first cavern), or a chute (empty space between two caverns, shaped like a magma tube).

I've once encountered this odd "unknown material" in a reclaim fortress where the fortress itself had quite a few critters from way below in it, but the passage was sealed on reclaim. I dug away half a dozen or so tiles of this unknown substance, but didn't get any boulders out of it, so yes, generation of features "on top" of a spire might be the culprit.

@Fleeting Frames: The odd thing in my case is that I generate the goblin site three tiles away from my intended embark, and with some geography seeds the embark remains savage, while with others it varies, and with some it always seems to decay. But yes, it might be yet another nefarious goblin plot, as my embark biome goes up to the border of the goblin one. Maybe I should go back to have a buffer biome...

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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2016, 06:27:57 am »
Technically, you could get all the requirements by embarking on the joyous desert, but that has no unicorns or vegetation, making it rather non-interesting. I did put it there in case aquifer is a deal-breaker, though.

Iirc the evil/good random placement depends on seeds as well, so multiple odds factors needs figuring out what affects what.

It's easier to just paint all evil areas small and all good areas giant or medium or vice-versa, though. Note here:Adjacant Shrubland, grassland, savanna are considered 1 "plains" region, swamp and marsh 1 wetland region, adjacant forests 1 forest region, etc....

If you don't want your humans or elves expand past certain point, make it cold while remaining plain/taiga for the purposes of evil/good. Making it savage will slow it down by centuries, but not necessarily stop.

Empty magma chutes...It reminds me of that empty volcano research I did earlier (turn off bottom layer, embark with volcano anywhere but top-left in embark selection square), but that had the lower magma pools filled. More research is needed, I guess.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 06:30:34 am by Fleeting Frames »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2016, 07:08:06 am »
Yes, evil/good placement is seed dependent, but with a suitable landscape sculpting and good/evil area size definitions you can force world gen to only have one solution, or a limited set of them (for instance locking good and medium regions, while allowing the small ones to vary randomly). In my fruitless attempts to generate my ideal embark I've gotten the good and evil fairly well put in place.
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vjek

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2016, 11:07:48 am »
Quote from: YetAnotherLurker on July 02, 2016, 04:57:40 am
I honestly don't understand how vjek's setting the number of good/evil biomes, though. I haven't messed around much with the PSVs, as that just doesn't feel natural enough, is that what he's using? ...
It's possible either way.
This worldgen does not use the PSV interface/painter:
Spoiler: YAL_PATCHW2 (click to show/hide)
However, this one does:
Spoiler: YAL_PATCHW1 (click to show/hide)
Yet they both produce the same kind of world, using the same technique.

In the PSV version, the medium region in the SE is painted with elevation, and the rest of the world is good/evil, ideally in small biomes, which tends to be true pretty much all the time.
However, the non-PSV version has more variables out of your control.  Procedural savagery placement and elevation mesh and weights don't always produce what you want.  From my perspective, if you're doing advanced worldgen anyway, you might as well use the PSV tool if required.

Pure patchwork worlds without using tricks like the non-savage, non good/evil medium mountain block shown above are harder to do.  Why?  Because even though you can randomize elevation, you're just increasing the odds of there being a savagery/good/evil overlap, leading to a rejection of that world.  From a time & efficiency point of view, you might as well just make it work all the time. :)
Also, it seems that most players don't really like embarks that are non-flat.  It leads to thicker embarks (farther to path to the magma sea), more scrolling around during gameplay, and a less ideal location if you want to build an above ground fortress of a particular size and layout.  Of course, some players don't mind a few z-level changes, but purely flat is typically more desirable.

So, if you can control the elevation, and leave the rest of the world flat, that seems to be better.  Some of these reasons may seem a bit overly specific, but sometimes what people want is a long list of things that are often mutually exclusive or rare, individually.  So, in some cases, I've found an ideal worldgen, but it doesn't have an aquifer.  Or the player only wants bloodthorn in the caverns, or they want it steel friendly and no surface trees.  Or all of these, plus all races on embark, or a dead civ on embark.

On top of that, any rejections (even 1) makes it so worldgen is not identical, cross platform.  So it has to work, reliably, predictably, cross platform, and meet a list of arbitrary requirements, and not suffer FPS death or be unplayable, performance-wise.  Challenging, often.  :P
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Imic

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2016, 01:08:19 pm »
Does anyone have a way of generating small peninsulas that could be taken up by one embark with mountains halfway to the end possibly using df perfect world?
In masterwork?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 01:09:55 pm by Imic »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2016, 01:13:34 pm »
The smallest feature you can make with the world painter is one world level tile sized. Smaller features than that are "randomly" generated by the seed. However, you can make a 16*1 embark ;)
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Imic

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2016, 01:24:35 pm »
I have tried time and time again to do this thing, but it always goes over two embark screens.
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vjek

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2016, 01:46:50 pm »
Quote from: Imic on July 02, 2016, 01:08:19 pm
Does anyone have a way of generating small peninsulas that could be taken up by one embark with mountains halfway to the end possibly using df perfect world?
In masterwork?
Are you asking for a mountain biome and an ocean in one embark of some small size (like 1x1, or 2x2, or 3x3?), along with a third biome so the embark is viable?
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2016, 01:49:47 pm »
Perfect World is great for making/replicating more realistic looking landscapes (Heck, if you want different-looking maps for non-elevation, can use six different maps to replace the noise/perlin field it would use, granting you access to tools like gimp/photoshop for world creation).

However, I'm not sure about the precise mechanics single-region tile painting in it, given how it rounds things to scale - have not really experimented much with it. As the entire thing works with same base as pre-set values aka world painter you can paint out mostly what you want and then do the single-tile isthmus after it.

I say single-tile.

However, whether the result fits on single embark screen is indeed random/dependent on seed - it can be 3 tile wide, or it can be 30 (i.e. across three region tiles).

Worse, I've found when doing single-region tile spirals that it tends to heavily (I think something like 10 or 20 to 1 ratio with 100-99 elevation differences? It's pretty heavy) lean towards the fatter that takes up multiple region tiles.

On the bright side, once you fit a seed that fits, you can then proceed to place later features that do not affect geography, confident in keeping hold of it.

If the goal is just mountain+ocean+third biome on the coast, then painting your desired biome under mountainous elevation and coasts next to each other and then letting erosion wear it down low enough so strip of mountain becomes your biome of choice would be possible.

However, perfect world never paints ocean and mountain next to each other with the noise fields - you will have to use your own unsmoothed elevation maps.

Or just load it up after creation, press e, press p, and then put your mountain-to-be-bit-eroded where you want it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 01:56:46 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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Imic

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2016, 02:09:10 pm »
Quote from: vjek on July 02, 2016, 01:46:50 pm
Quote from: Imic on July 02, 2016, 01:08:19 pm
Does anyone have a way of generating small peninsulas that could be taken up by one embark with mountains halfway to the end possibly using df perfect world?
In masterwork?
Are you asking for a mountain biome and an ocean in one embark of some small size (like 1x1, or 2x2, or 3x3?), along with a third biome so the embark is viable?
Something like that

===water===
==~~~~~~=
=~~~~~~==
=~~~~~===
=mmmm===
==mmm===
=mmm~===
=~~~~~~=
~~~~~~~~
M means mountain, and ~ means land. Not dasert, though. I hate the heat.

Quote from: Fleeting Frames on July 02, 2016, 01:49:47 pm
Perfect World is great for making/replicating more realistic looking landscapes (Heck, if you want different-looking maps for non-elevation, can use six different maps to replace the noise/perlin field it would use, granting you access to tools like gimp/photoshop for world creation).

However, I'm not sure about the precise mechanics single-region tile painting in it, given how it rounds things to scale - have not really experimented much with it. As the entire thing works with same base as pre-set values aka world painter you can paint out mostly what you want and then do the single-tile isthmus after it.

I say single-tile.

However, whether the result fits on single embark screen is indeed random/dependent on seed - it can be 3 tile wide, or it can be 30 (i.e. across three region tiles).

Worse, I've found when doing single-region tile spirals that it tends to heavily (I think something like 10 or 20 to 1 ratio with 100-99 elevation differences? It's pretty heavy) lean towards the fatter that takes up multiple region tiles.

On the bright side, once you fit a seed that fits, you can then proceed to place later features that do not affect geography, confident in keeping hold of it.

If the goal is just mountain+ocean+third biome on the coast, then painting your desired biome under mountainous elevation and coasts next to each other and then letting erosion wear it down low enough so strip of mountain becomes your biome of choice would be possible.

However, perfect world never paints ocean and mountain next to each other with the noise fields - you will have to use your own unsmoothed elevation maps.

Or just load it up after creation, press e, press p, and then put your mountain-to-be-bit-eroded where you want it.

Thanks for the advice.  :'(
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 02:14:54 pm by Imic »
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