Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[werty892]

Space Colony.

Game Biz 3. (presumably the previous game biz games.)
X space game franchise.
EVE.

Do you have a link for Space Colony? I've seen it on wikipedia but i'm not sure if that's the game you were referring to as there seems to be several other games called that.

I reviewed the manual for X, and i couldn't find anything about finance or economy besides trading. is there any form of banking or security trading, even if minimal?

I have the same question with EVE. I have reviewed the economy section on EVE online's wikipedia page, and it looks pretty developed as far as trade goes, but I do not see very many financial tools regarding dynamic banking or investing. Let me know if you have any information on this please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Colony_(video_game)
In Space Colony, you manage a colony, with a particular economic goal, and managing folks, to work supply trains.

EVE economics are outside the game as much as they are inside the game. Their commodity market fluctuates based on supply and demand. ISK, the currency you buy in game time with is a physical currency within the game, thatcan be traded around.  There is also a very heavy services industry as well, which is all ad hoc with very little explict in game tools for them.There arent any stocks to my knowledge, yet but thats probably because EVE company cant really give out money without having to become a legal bank.

Yeah, if they can redeem fake money for real money (if i'm understanding your correctly) they will have trouble implementing a full financial system legally.

Yep. As a EVE player, there are opportunities for investing, however they are very risky because the person can just "take the money and run" and there is no real method for you to get it back, especially if they decide to roll a new character and just give the money to them, it can't be traced. As a side note the real money ---> fake money flow is one way, you can't turn your fake money into real money without breaking the EULA of the game. People still do it, but it's very firmly against the rules. Feel free to ask me any questions you have about the EvE economy by the way, it's always fun to explain.

[mainiac]

I guess I'm a purist but I say the only one on that list that qualifies is RRT3.    And that qualifies with a caveat, interest rates dont work quite right.  They should go down during recessions not up.  Although the bond rating of your company does go down in a recession (the simulation anticipates the decline in revenues I guess) so that's good.

A railroad simulation that gets interest rates right is Rails Across America.  It also has realistic railroad construction times which is interesting.

There are a few edutainment minigames about interest rates which are usually made by central banks or professors and they do a decent job of things.  Greg Mankiw (George Bush economic advisor) made a decent one back in 2005.  Googling around gave me this one: http://sffed-education.org/chairthefed/WebGamePlay.html.  The ECB made one a while back that I seem to remember had something egregiously wrong with it but I can't remember what.

Oh and this isn't a computer game but it's a gem: http://crookedtimber.org/2012/02/16/so-what-would-your-plan-for-greece-be/

[Abram Jones]

In Rise of Venice the player is able to grant loans and gain interest from them at the risk of borrowers defaulting on the loans.  I'm pretty sure this existed in Patrician IV as well.  Its been a while...

I wonder a little at the restriction you are placing on 'finance' though since there are interesting 'monetary' mechanics outside of that.  For example in RoV being able to finance crooks to rip off your competitors warehouses.  Or buy houses and become a landlord (actually this is pretty much required to play the game - although it can also be done purely as an investment strategy).

Okay excellent, yes then Rise of Venice would qualify as well as Patrician.

To answer your concern, a true economic game should have a feature to strategically manipulate the situation by strictly traditional financial means as well as have industrial and financial dynamics like those you are speaking of. Commodity trading (port to port for instance) is as an investment too just as your examples.

[Abram Jones]

I thought simutrans was supposed to be comparable with openttd, but only openttd meets your requirements?

It is comparable in most elements, but does not have share trading.

[Abram Jones]

I guess its because OpenTTD has an option to invest in cities? if so i'd say that it's a rather superficial feature.

No, the difference is share trading and takeovers.

[Abram Jones]

Or buy houses and become a landlord

If this sort of activity counts, then you could include Mount & Blade Warband with some of the economic mods.

While there is no banking and loans per se, Imperialism I did have a strong global commodity market that you can speculate in by buying and holding goods.

Starsector (and many EV-Likes) have similar features.

EVE does indeed have a stock market, though I'm unsure if it exists purely informally.  Still, a market existing as an emergent property of interaction between players rather than a codified in-game exchange should not be disqualified.  Look at the kinds of things people are doing here, makes me want to play the game:  http://www.eve-markets.net/

No, that type of activity doesn't count (though it's a bonus if they also have said financial investment). The reason why it doesn't count is because anything remotely financial or economic in nature could be considered an investment (if i water my plant i am "investing" in it). But the requirements call for strictly financial investment as well as financial/industrial dynamics. I think this is where people are misunderstanding me. Imperialism was also disqualified for the list for the same reason, lack of dynamic financial tools.

What you are looking at with the EVE link seems to be resource prices, not share prices. And yes, it is required for financial tools to be codified in the game so that financial transactions can potentially be documented and accounted for. If not, then any game where players can send each other currency could be considered an "in depth economic game" because they could simply say here i'll give you a loan of ¤500, and then send them ¤500. Do you see my point?

[Abram Jones]

Space Colony.

Game Biz 3. (presumably the previous game biz games.)
X space game franchise.
EVE.

Do you have a link for Space Colony? I've seen it on wikipedia but i'm not sure if that's the game you were referring to as there seems to be several other games called that.

I reviewed the manual for X, and i couldn't find anything about finance or economy besides trading. is there any form of banking or security trading, even if minimal?

I have the same question with EVE. I have reviewed the economy section on EVE online's wikipedia page, and it looks pretty developed as far as trade goes, but I do not see very many financial tools regarding dynamic banking or investing. Let me know if you have any information on this please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Colony_(video_game)
In Space Colony, you manage a colony, with a particular economic goal, and managing folks, to work supply trains.

EVE economics are outside the game as much as they are inside the game. Their commodity market fluctuates based on supply and demand. ISK, the currency you buy in game time with is a physical currency within the game, thatcan be traded around.  There is also a very heavy services industry as well, which is all ad hoc with very little explict in game tools for them.There arent any stocks to my knowledge, yet but thats probably because EVE company cant really give out money without having to become a legal bank.

Yeah, if they can redeem fake money for real money (if i'm understanding your correctly) they will have trouble implementing a full financial system legally.

Yep. As a EVE player, there are opportunities for investing, however they are very risky because the person can just "take the money and run" and there is no real method for you to get it back, especially if they decide to roll a new character and just give the money to them, it can't be traced. As a side note the real money ---> fake money flow is one way, you can't turn your fake money into real money without breaking the EULA of the game. People still do it, but it's very firmly against the rules. Feel free to ask me any questions you have about the EvE economy by the way, it's always fun to explain.

Firstly, thanks for the information, it helps a lot and is interesting. However, these types of investments do not meet the requirement the list because there must be actual financial tools programmed into the game. This way things can be potentially documented and reviewed strategically from a financial perspective. In the EVE situation, it sounds like complete anarchy, and you can't sit down at your office desk and analyze the financial numbers regarding loans or shares of stock to help you with your next decision. (: So to clarify, to make the list, a game must have both financial tools for investment with mechanics such as loans or securities and a game must have a financial/industrial dynamic. EVE has the the financial industrial dynamic, but not the appropriate financial tools (this is true for most economic games).

[mainiac]

Okay two things:

1) Dont quintuple post.  There is an edit post button. 

2) When you say "true" economic games  I think what you mean to say is "games that model investment costs in the macro-economic sense and dont static or infinite demand curves."  This is why you are disqualifying imperialism for instance.  In imperialism you are thinking in the purely microeconomic sense.  You want a certain number of tons of steel so you optimize to build the correct number of steel mills within your budget constraint.  If you can't satisfy your needs in the budget constraint, you need to figure out how to get by with less steel.  This contrasts to RRT3 for where depending on the interest rate an investment might be bad or might be good.  In RRT3 you have access to capital markets (bonds and stock sales) but those face realistic limits.  In RRT3 there is a finite amount of cargo to move and the rates change in response to traffic.  So there is both a realistic supply and demand curve.

[Abram Jones]

I guess I'm a purist but I say the only one on that list that qualifies is RRT3.    And that qualifies with a caveat, interest rates dont work quite right.  They should go down during recessions not up.  Although the bond rating of your company does go down in a recession (the simulation anticipates the decline in revenues I guess) so that's good.

A railroad simulation that gets interest rates right is Rails Across America.  It also has realistic railroad construction times which is interesting.

There are a few edutainment minigames about interest rates which are usually made by central banks or professors and they do a decent job of things.  Greg Mankiw (George Bush economic advisor) made a decent one back in 2005.  Googling around gave me this one: http://sffed-education.org/chairthefed/WebGamePlay.html.  The ECB made one a while back that I seem to remember had something egregiously wrong with it but I can't remember what.

Oh and this isn't a computer game but it's a gem: http://crookedtimber.org/2012/02/16/so-what-would-your-plan-for-greece-be/

I've heard of Rails across America. I know that you can pay dividends to shareholders, but is there any form of financial investment for the player such as providing loans or buying shares/bonds?

Yeah, I wouldn't trust those mini games any further than I could throw them (:

Okay two things:

1) Dont quintuple post.  There is an edit post button. 

2) When you say "true" economic games  I think what you mean to say is "games that model investment costs in the macro-economic sense and dont static or infinite demand curves."  This is why you are disqualifying imperialism for instance.  In imperialism you are thinking in the purely microeconomic sense.  You want a certain number of tons of steel so you optimize to build the correct number of steel mills within your budget constraint.  If you can't satisfy your needs in the budget constraint, you need to figure out how to get by with less steel.  This contrasts to RRT3 for where depending on the interest rate an investment might be bad or might be good.  In RRT3 you have access to capital markets (bonds and stock sales) but those face realistic limits.  In RRT3 there is a finite amount of cargo to move and the rates change in response to traffic.  So there is both a realistic supply and demand curve.

Okay, think I got it.

Maybe that's what I'm saying, I'm not sure (: But yeah, I think you understand what I mean basically.

[mainiac]

Bonds are the heart and soul of rails across america.  Rail construction is realistically slow and the profit margins are pretty thin.  You also need a large network because the more cities you are connected to the more cargo people want to send.  All this adds up to the fact that your company is always going to be in debt unless you are playing on easy difficulty.  It's a cycle where you need to increase your revenues so that you can sell more bonds so you can increase your revenue more so that eventually down the line you can break even.

[Abram Jones]

Bonds are the heart and soul of rails across america.  Rail construction is realistically slow and the profit margins are pretty thin.  You also need a large network because the more cities you are connected to the more cargo people want to send.  All this adds up to the fact that your company is always going to be in debt unless you are playing on easy difficulty.  It's a cycle where you need to increase your revenues so that you can sell more bonds so you can increase your revenue more so that eventually down the line you can break even.

Sounds like my kind of game, but there is no way for the player to invest in other railroads or loan to other railroads or other entities?

[mainiac]

I dont remember there being and stock market, only bond markets.

[lastverb]

I wasn't aware that Capitalism Lab was a stand alone, I thought it was simply an expansion of Capitalism 2 (which I have played). What are the differences in Capitalism Lab in comparison to Capitalism 2?

I have heard of GearCity but did not add it to the list, isn't it another version of Detroit? (which is already on the list of games that did not qualify)

Lab mainly expands on non-production markets (tech trading, land and civilian/commercial buildings) and macroeconomic simulation (inflation etc.). Almost everything listed here:
http://www.capitalismlab.com/new-features.html
http://www.capitalismlab.com/new-content.html

GearCity is Detroit-style, but with exactly what you are looking for: stock market, marques and takeovers.

[puke]

There was some MMO that was had a forum thread a while back.  Some guy's home made game but it really had everything.

On the surface, it was a basic business simulator.  But the goods you could produce would go on to be components of secondary and tertiary goods and services, and you could vertically integrate your entire supply chain.  There was also the buying and selling of stock in corporations, basically everything here.

Simple pixel art style graphics, with sort of win3.x style menus.

Anyone remember it?

In searching for it, I found something called Virtonomics which looks like it might interest this crowd?  http://virtonomics.com/

[MrWiggles]

Economy of Scales. The stock market got broken pretty badly, and then the Dev went away, and so the game largely died. But it was pretty fucking fun while it lasted.