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[FantasticDorf]

Hmm i wonder if grown wooden axes courtesy of elven magic have the nessecary cutting power of the old training axes, given they'd not be much use else. (for consistency that should probably be checked) This kind of interferes with alternative race mods in fortress mode to some degree since anything with [wooden_weapons] would be typically unplayable.

Not that we should really encourage elves to run around chopping, but for broad military application and as to say a highly ironic dilemma of a elf pinned and trapped beneath a tree, its going to be there for a long time if it has to free itself via cutting a limb off with a blunt axe if no animal companions are around to assist.

But yes, another exploit bites the dust. Metal is king.

[Urist McVoyager]

If it's a goblin-raised elf it wouldn't give a shit what kind of ax it was wielding. And it would probably have a metal one anyway. The real question would be angles. Could one who is lying on his or her back actually get the kind of speed going on a swing to cut into the tree to start with? I wanna say not likely. Some people might, but I doubt most would.

[Fleeting Frames]

Hm, "can't use wood to work on wood" makes some sense...Actually, this makes me wonder on the physics of anvils (working on things from materials as strong or stronger than the anvil itself), perhaps in the future they might accumulate wear with use, dependent on hardness difficulty? (So you'd ruin several iron|steel anvils when trying to make a steel|adamantine one, requiring a job to take place across multiple workshops, but in exchange the product will last much longer.)

However, irl really hot things have different fracture/yield values, so...A conundrum.

Regardless of irl→simulation inaccuracies (dragons usually in ruins rather than caves :p), I guess this makes only wooden spears have a somewhat easily-applies use out of the training weapons, beating on harmless prisoners excepted?
On zero-item embarks, I guess natural caves are the only way to get subterranean areas, where the water can be transported after. Hm, I have not previously considered it, but I guess if you want overhangs in landscape you will have to make them yourself - similarly, I've yet to see water dig inside a mountain, though I've seen mentions of underground rivers, thus making it perhaps possible with crazy z-levels.

If your biome spawns alligators/crocs/beak dogs/ostriches/barn owls you could have source of gizzard stones, which might be fire-safe. With magma access and shearable animals (not wagon-pullers, so would have to rely on migrants or perhaps be playing as elves [if they can tame wild animals without cages] ), could get a bag for sand, enabling vials for waterskins and trap components for value generation as well as secure entrances via hatch covers and quite presentable dining rooms and barracks.

Hm, now I kinda want to do such no-caravan embark on a volcano....A moody glassmaker can make a bed for dormitory, but can a moody mechanic use clay or gizzard stones to make mechanisms? Otherwise, I wonder if you could have overflowing volcano create a dip pit for minecart and then have water one right after to extinguish the cart and get magma inside cart to turn into obsidian boulder....

[Authority2]

You can embark at minimum with only a copper nugget and anvil, without any other fire-safe material. First, use the nugget as a building material to burn the wood into 1 ash and 2 charcoal. Then, you can deconstruct that and use the ash as the building material for the smelter to smelt the nugget and the forge to forge the pick.

[Linkxsc]

So new challenge i guess is the 0 embark. Cant make an axe from scratch, but if you have surface clay, you can use that to make shelter. If you have a supply of clay, thatll let you use your wood for crossbow, else you need to save all the wagon wood for your depot.
Basically just have to try and survive in the open for the first year without drinks. Then starting once you get a caravan maybe get a lick and axe to work with.

[PatrikLundell]

I've seen clay "boulders" being used by mooders instead of rock ones, so yes, clay can replace stone for moods.

[Urist McVoyager]

Don't you need a kiln to trigger the collection job? Can't make one out of wood.

My way: Carpenter deconstructs the wagon. Three wood start out as a butcher, tanner, and leatherworker. Those go to producing a quiver. Maybe two, if I want to set up two hunters. Then the wood gets changed over to a bowyer for bone bows, and a crafter for bone bolts and totems. The butcher shop can stay since you're going to keep needing it. After the bow/s get made, you can switch the bowyer back to a tanner and keep tanning the hides as they come in. You can decide for yourself whether you want to craft the hides into gear or keep churning out bolts and crafts. It would be safe to have four or five of your starters geared with crossbows, though you ideally only want one or two hunting at any given time. The others should be standing guard in case of thieves.

[Kogan Onulsodel]

You can embark at minimum with only a copper nugget and anvil, without any other fire-safe material. First, use the nugget as a building material to burn the wood into 1 ash and 2 charcoal. Then, you can deconstruct that and use the ash as the building material for the smelter to smelt the nugget and the forge to forge the pick.

Oh man, I forgot about building with ash. That's right: you can make trees into magma-safe building material. Obviously.

[Urist McVoyager]

Another bug to be patched out like the one that triggered this thread, of course. I'm sure it will be, given time. I wonder what bugs will get knocked out next.

[Fleeting Frames]

I've seen clay "boulders" being used by mooders instead of rock ones, so yes, clay can replace stone for moods.

Nice, safety and as long as one gets the right visitors into library one can have dabbling mechanics for getting a breeding pair of stone-producing animals.

Don't you need a kiln to trigger the collection job? Can't make one out of wood.

Wiki claims gizzard stones can be made out of any stone, so if you can kill something that produces one you might have fire-safe material for the kiln/wood furnace/etc.

[milo christiansen]

Gizzard stones are gems, so no luck there.

[Linkxsc]

Don't you need a kiln to trigger the collection job? Can't make one out of wood.

Point Taken.

My way: Carpenter deconstructs the wagon. Three wood start out as a butcher, tanner, and leatherworker. Those go to producing a quiver. Maybe two, if I want to set up two hunters. Then the wood gets changed over to a bowyer for bone bows, and a crafter for bone bolts and totems. The butcher shop can stay since you're going to keep needing it. After the bow/s get made, you can switch the bowyer back to a tanner and keep tanning the hides as they come in. You can decide for yourself whether you want to craft the hides into gear or keep churning out bolts and crafts. It would be safe to have four or five of your starters geared with crossbows, though you ideally only want one or two hunting at any given time. The others should be standing guard in case of thieves.

Well. i think I'm actually going to take a stab at this as it seems like it could be an interesting fort to run.
Tribal Dwarves.
Things you can certainly do right off the bat though, You can make hunters, you can gather fruit, you can fish for food supplies. For thirst they have to drink water, so a river would probably be a good idea. Shelter, you can't really do anything about until the caravan, as you can't make shelter with cloth, bone, or leather. And you NEED all 3 pieces of wood from the wagon to make a trade depot.


Sounds fun. Gonna go do that.

[FantasticDorf]

I guess if we're talking a typical woodland setting (bonus points for setting it inside a evil alignment forest) just locate the largest bunch of canopy trees and camp under them for stress relieving shade. Wait three months for foraging, in order to roll the mandatory migration waves for anyone carrying useful supplies.

If you want to be really extreme, forbid and sell the clothes off people's backs in order to pay the traders in the case that there's not enough around you to forage. River fishing is reliable, and if everyone is wearing bone/shell armour via military drafting, they aren't 'naked', the bone crafts would probably also go a long way too along with the odd wrestled down animal to feed yourself on and collect its leather.

Nudist 0 point fortress is go.

[Fleeting Frames]

Gizzard stones are gems, so no luck there.

Tch, my bad. I guess they can be only used for weak, probably jumpable walls by means of gem windows, then.

And just tested with masterwork maple minecart whether it can drive through 7/7 magma....it doesn't even drop a z-level when following before being lost, and even when filled with water there isn't even any steam, so that idea probably doesn't work either.

Though hm, perhaps you could get the water boulder to turn into ice boulder by water-filling the cart on warmer temp area and then carrying it to colder area? Albeit that would still be fire-unsafe, so utility is medium-low barring an interesting biome contrast (if you have tropics and glacier on same embark could totally build workshops out of it, though, which leaves you with free log or 2 depending on whether it is free to extract minecart from the water. Can net a bit more secure entrance, at least).

Still...Magma, you have failed me.

[bostltch]

Well. i think I'm actually going to take a stab at this as it seems like it could be an interesting fort to run.
Tribal Dwarves.
Things you can certainly do right off the bat though, You can make hunters, you can gather fruit, you can fish for food supplies. For thirst they have to drink water, so a river would probably be a good idea. Shelter, you can't really do anything about until the caravan, as you can't make shelter with cloth, bone, or leather. And you NEED all 3 pieces of wood from the wagon to make a trade depot.


Sounds fun. Gonna go do that.

If you plan on it, surface forts are always interesting to do and I enjoy doing them but the huge open area always kills the pathfinding and causes fps death. Staying "tribal" would he a cool challenge though while it lasts. Unless you wanted to evolve your society after you have the means to dig. Or would that be devolution going from tribal to cave men...