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[Amperzand]

The stuff should actually be pretty horrific in a trench warfare context, yes.

Actually, as a more important/less invention-heavy thing, grenades. Grenades are crazy effective in trench fighting, and in WW1 there were assault troops armed with nothing but a bag of grenades. Also seems like a fairly simple thing to develop.

I'm not really in possession of sufficient spare brainspace to help figure out the managment of the game, so I'm largely just throwing concepts around to see what turns out useful.

[somemildmanneredidiot]

That is appreciated. Getting a list of various useful projects is definitely something that will be helpful so we don't end up in a regular "design a better [something we already have] rut.

One thing we might want to think about is what would counter our current technology to give us an idea about what the enemy might be working on that we haven't heard about.

Trench warfare wise, if they start churning out barb wire and land mines, that would definitely put a dent in our ability to actually deploy our trench guns and get to their lines. Our advantage there seems to be our ability to clear out a trench when we get to them, so a solution to that is to make it more difficult for us to get to their trenches.

Artillery wise, I'm not really thinking of anything. I suppose if they manage to get out some sort of light bomber, they could try to make surgical or saturation strikes to clear out our guns.

At sea, the torpedo system, if provided enough launchers, might be able to do something I suppose. The Swordfish would have a similar hypothetical vulnerability to light bombers. If they decided to give up on deploying their own ships, they could try to overflow the sea with depth charges so that our ships would be unable to get close enough.

[3_14159]

Well, most of the time dead soldiers guns cant be reused, and then guns sometimes get destroyed when a soldier survives. Which mostly happens during retreats.

Just to clarify:
In 805, we had a total of 33,905 Pattern 782 rifles. We haven't produced any, and now have 3,270 rifles left. This means we lost 30,635 rifles (over 90%) during the last two turns, for about 15,000 per turn. To keep up with losses, we'd need 7,500pp assigned to producing Pattern 782 (or 9,000 to produce an equivalent number of Revolving Rifles).
(In comparison, we had 4500 Revolving Rifles in 805, produced a total of 3700 in the last two turns [stocks without losses: 8200] and lost 3000 during the last two turns [37%]. To keep up with this, we require 2,500pp assigned to the rifle.)

Actually, as a more important/less invention-heavy thing, grenades. Grenades are crazy effective in trench fighting, and in WW1 there were assault troops armed with nothing but a bag of grenades. Also seems like a fairly simple thing to develop.

Good idea!

Artillery wise, I'm not really thinking of anything. I suppose if they manage to get out some sort of light bomber, they could try to make surgical or saturation strikes to clear out our guns.

I'm fairly certain that, whatever bomber they make, their payload will probably be too light to make a difference, not to mention it (probably) being shot down by HMGs.

At sea, the torpedo system, if provided enough launchers, might be able to do something I suppose. The Swordfish would have a similar hypothetical vulnerability to light bombers. If they decided to give up on deploying their own ships, they could try to overflow the sea with depth charges so that our ships would be unable to get close enough.

By depth charges, do you mean mines?

[somemildmanneredidiot]

Yes. In retrospect, depth charges might be something for deeper sea defense. Or something.

A question about how turns work because again I was supposed to be asleep hours ago. Is it, design purposel>results>production order or design purposel & production order>results

[Aseaheru]

Ah, so I did loose track of a zero then.

[somemildmanneredidiot]

Ah, so I did loose track of a zero then.

Fantastic, we don't need to drop almost everything and produce factories every turn now.

Are the numbers on the loss of Revolving Rifles correct then? Is there a particular reason why we lost about 3 times as many P 801s as compared to P 782s?

[Aseaheru]

 More modern gear that is using modern ammo gets used first. Mostly to avoid ammo mixups, since the old rifles have yet to be updated to be able to use smokeless ammunition if one is in a low-intensity area.

[milo christiansen]

Things seem to be moving right along!

* I would definitely like to second grenades (how could we forget something so basic?).
* The proposed radio design is bulky and fragile, but sadly that is how radios were back then. I don't think we could do any better...
* The proposed truck looks good. With the engines being so small, light, and cheap mounting two of them is a fine idea!
    * I have some sub-proposals below that depend on this truck, so go Mule!
* Some kind of cheap sea-mine would be useful, but too complicated to make reliable with our tech. Some land mines would be nice though...
* Mortar round improvements are critical.
* Do we know where the enemy has their experimental shipyards? If we could shell the crap out of them with the ratio on a new model swordfish... Even better if we can shell some other experimental facilities or factories.
* More/better infantry equipment is a good priority, as better infantry are needed to hold the ground we take.

I am not worried about any anti-torpedo-boat boat our opponents may come up with. The main reason to use torpedo boats in the first place is that they are very cheap, ridiculously effective, and hard to counter if you don't have automatic (fast firing) cannon armed patrol boats, which our opponents lack So long as we can hold an edge in direct fire armament we have no need to worry.

Here are a few Mule based proposals:

"Rhino" Road builder

The Rhino is basically a standard Mule truck, but with a simple cable operated front blade and a towed box scraper. In the cargo area an extra Pattern 807 engine running a simple winch (used to lift the front blade) as well as a simple boom crane (also using the winch). Along the sides there is seating for a small work crew.

The idea is for the crew to cut down any trees, etc blocking the proposed route (the boom crane is for moving the logs out of the way). Then the front blade is used to smooth out major humps, and the box scraper is used to put the finishing touches on the new "road". The winch and boom crane may also be useful for building small bridges or bunkers. Keep in mind that this is meant to be a fast moving mechanical assist for normal work crews, not a full-up bulldozer and crane!

The box scraper would also help keep the temporary roads maintained, since the type of road that would result from this would tend to get ruts very quickly.

Obviously this depends on the Mule being designed first or concurrently. Mostly this proposal is a cable operated front blade, a winch, a towed box scraper, and a simple boom crane. All of these are fairly simple and crude, and most of the components can probably be acquired from civilian sources.

The intention of this design is to allow temporary roads to be run to our front lines, thereby greatly increasing the speed that our trucks can move reinforcements and materials to the front.

"Frontline" Armored Truck

The Frontline is a Mule truck with a lightly armored cab and engine area, waist high armored cargo area, and armored half circles covering as much of the wheels as practical.

The armor should be thick enough to stand up to shrapnel and small arms fire (but not HMG fire, as that would make it too heavy).

A HMG mount is provided on top of the cab so a gunner can protect the truck as it advances.

The Frontline is intended as an artillery prime mover and/or for troop movement near the front. Also mortar platoons should have a Frontline assigned to help carry them into battle (and to go back for ammo )

The idea is that a Frontline can operate closer to the battle than a normal Mule.

[3_14159]

Ah, so I did loose track of a zero then.

Phew.
That means we're actually making progress producing the new rifles.

* I would definitely like to second grenades (how could we forget something so basic?).

Proposal: Fragmentation Grenade Pattern 808
This is a simple, egg-shaped grenade. It consists of a four-second fuse, which is initialized by releasing a safety lever (which itself is secured by a pullable ring). The body is cast iron, and is intended to splinter during detonation. It is filled with smokeless powder. There is a small threading on the bottom of the grenade, allowing it to accept a stick to throw it further. This increases the grenade's weight from 3/4kg to one kg.

* Some kind of cheap sea-mine would be useful, but too complicated to make reliable with our tech. Some land mines would be nice though...

Would it really? Hm.
Looking at history, there are several mines which have been deployed during the first world war. Mostly contact mines, but still.

Proposal: Sea Mine Pattern 808
This is a 40cm-diameter sea mine. It is cast iron, and contains the same charge as our torpedoes (50kg). It consists of the body, contact detonators, and an anchor cable of 75m length. It is intended to be thrown overboard with the anchor set to according the current depth. It is then deployed, remaining a few meters under water.
Due to using the same diameter as our torpedoes while being lighter and shorter, it should be possible to carry two or three of the sea mines for every torpedo, and deploy them using the torpedo tubes.

Here are a few Mule based proposals:
- snip -

The Rhino could also be useful to build air fields. I'd leave both of the designs for next turn (to make sure the Mule turns out its absolute best), but - unless Aseaheru tells us it'd not be for us to worry about - I can see us using these designs. Assuming, of course, that we end up with a sufficiently good Mule.

[milo christiansen]

* Some kind of cheap sea-mine would be useful, but too complicated to make reliable with our tech. Some land mines would be nice though...

Would it really? Hm.
Looking at history, there are several mines which have been deployed during the first world war. Mostly contact mines, but still.

Errr, I wasn't thinking of contact mines. Oops!

Your mine design looks pretty good... I can just imagine the faces of our enemies the first time they hit one

The grenade design looks about right too, not much room to get fancy there The stick socket is a good touch, is there any way it could be tweaked to make field expedient sticks reasonable? The less we have to produce (and haul to the front) the better. Maybe really coarse, tapered threads? That way any reasonably straight stick could be jammed in the socket and twisted once or twice to fix it in place.

I am totally fine with delaying the special truck designs, they were more a matter of getting them written down before I forgot about it Obviously the better the Mule ends up being the better the Rhino and Frontline end up being, and neither of my designs are very complicated (so they can be done later with minimal engineers). If the Mule turns out to be really good it may make a good base for an armored car (a Frontline with thicker armor and more MGs).

We really do need Aseaheru to chime in on the Rhino (would it help or not? Are we allowed to worry about that kind of thing?).

[somemildmanneredidiot]

Sounds like we've got quite a few things we can work on.

The current proposal list:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Design:
- Radio-Set, Man-portable
- Mule Truck
- Camouflage uniforms
- Infantry equipment
- Frag Grenade
- Sea Mine
- Phosphorus, White

Industrial
- Training program
- Truck factory
- General-purpose factory
- Artillery factory

I may have missed a few things from earlier. I remember Pi mentioning a 20mm or 40 mm rapid fire cannon I believe, and there was my talking about working on how to make the mounting on the Swordfish capable of moving the Ratio like the previous cannons, though I think both things were talked about doing later. There's also the new truck variation designs which seem to be agreed upon to wait til we get the Mule handled.

@Sticks: I'd kind of like to manufacture them so that there's less risk of things going wrong. Having a standard stick makes it easier to practice with and is less dependent on collecting sticks in the field.

If we're getting to a voting stage, I would go for the following.

Designs
-Radio-Set, Man-Portable
-Mule Truck
-Infantry Equipment
-Camouflage Uniforms

Industrial:
-Training program
-Truck Factory
-General Purpose Factory

My thinking is that the Radio and Truck are musts. I think everyone is agreed on that so I won't expand on that point.

The infantry uniform and gear upgrades will streamline some things on a logistical level for our troops. Also camouflage might make the enemy second guess where to shoot, which is a nice advantage.

The factories and training program will be a big help everywhere. Plus we need to actually make the engine anf the trucks. Nothing really more on that.

Why not for the other things? We're apparently able to clear out trenches fairly well at the moment, so while frag grenades and white phosphorus would be nice and quite effective, we already have an edge in those areas. The same applies for the sea mines. They'll help secure the seas, but we already have a solid hold on them already. We already have an edge with artillery in regards to numbers apparently as their current field guns are spread thin trying to do many jobs at once, so our current production rate seems to be doing fine for the moment.

Basically, I think we're doing well in the areas that these things would improve and that our engineers can be better concentrated working on areas that we haven't looked into very much before. If we have 12 engineers working on the factories (4 each perhaps?), that would leave us with 18 for the designs, which would let us have 4 on each with an extra two to make sure that one or two of the designs do quite well.

[milo christiansen]

I would add grenades to that list. Grenades are very simple, so assign one engineer to them and get it out of the way. That way we have the design ready and waiting for when we want to start producing them. If our opponents ever start kicking our asses in the trenches (or we feel the need for them for some other reason) we can start producing them immediately instead of having to wait for a design.

Changing the threads on the grenade design does not preclude manufacturing sticks, or even change the grenade in and significant way, so I say we design the grenade so we can use either kind of stick. This will actually make it easier to make factory sticks too, as they will not need and threads on the stick itself (cheaper to make). In the case that a unit has less sticks than it wants it can just scrounge a few... One other thing: With a large thread tapered stick hole it would be easy to mount grenades on stakes... A bit of string for a tripwire, and you have a fine booby trap. I think our troops would appreciate that

Proposal: Fragmentation Grenade Pattern 808 (amended)
This is a simple, egg-shaped grenade. It consists of a four-second fuse, which is initialized by releasing a safety lever (which itself is secured by a pullable ring). The body is cast iron, and is intended to splinter during detonation. It is filled with smokeless powder. There is a small tapered socket on the bottom of the grenade containing a set of aggressive threads, allowing it to accept a stick or stake. A standard throwing stick increases the grenade's weight from 3/4kg to one kg. The stick socket may also be used with stakes to allow easy use in field expedient traps or, with the addition of some string running back to the trench line, as an effective final defence against charges.

The Ratio mount improvements for the Swordfish are also important, as I really dislike the idea of producing defective (or at least not optimal) boats that we will have to fix later... Maybe one naval engineer would be sufficient for this? (it is a very focused project)

[Aseaheru]

 I would say that a back-of-the-line, this thing aint going close to combat road building truck would have little to no effect on everything. Combat recovery vehicles, on the other hand, do matter. Alot. Mostly to decrease tank lossless(when tanks are a thing).
 There is a reason why the Tiger being as heavy as it was was a big issue for the Germans, and thats because the onlything that could get a tiger out of the mud in combat was another tiger.
Also, you guys may want to check the description for the mortar rounds again, carefully. Could try making it so that the shaft is packaged separate, and then realize what that means for the warhead...

[milo christiansen]

The Rhino isn't really heavy enough to be a combat recovery vehicle (unless you need one for recovering Frontlines), so I guess that idea is scrap.

On second thought, let's keep it, but change it's intended use to combat recovery and artillery emplacement.

"Rhino" Light Combat Recovery Vehicle/Artillery Prime Mover

The Rhino is a Mule truck intended for moving/emplacing artillery and recovering/repairing light vehicles.

In the cargo area is an extra Pattern 807 engine running a winch as well as a simple boom crane (using the winch). Along the sides (of the cargo area) there is seating for mechanics or artillery crew members. The front of the Rhino mounts a light cable operated blade, intended for leveling ground for artillery emplacements and other light combat engineering tasks.

To help support extra weight when the crane is being used, an extra (unpowered) axle is mounted behind the existing (powered) back axle and both back axles use duals. This also slightly increases traction and flotation, making the Rhino more effective at towing stuck vehicles.

The crane would be used for lifting stuck trucks and other light engineering tasks (a small crane is invaluable to any gun regiment), the blade would be a big help flattening areas for gun emplacements and repairing holes where a truck got stuck, and last but not least, the winch would allow it to pull any stuck vehicles out of the mud or whatever.

The only real tricky bits of the design are the boom crane (getting it solidly mounted enough to support much weight) and the winch. The rest of it is just fitting out a basic Mule. The blade is dead simple. All you need to do is put some pulleys on top of the cab (so you can run the winch cable forward) and then mount the blade directly to the frame behind the cab (simple pins welded to the frame is all you need). The blade can't be too heavy, because a Mule simple wouldn't have enough traction to use it, but a light blade can be very useful for a recovery vehicle. Obviously this would be better on tracks, but that will come later. The crane can probably be welded to a slightly reinforced frame.

By "boom crane" I mean a crude crane where the boom is held at a fixed angle, and is used to hold a winch cable in the air for light duty lifting. This is also known as a "jib crane".

By providing a way to lock the boom forward it could also serve double duty as the cable guide for the blade

Spoiler: Here, have a picture of an old cable dozer, see how crude the blade is? (click to show/hide)

Anyway, a fairly low priority, but it would be nice to have once we have a fleet of trucks... Particularly once we have some Frontlines running (and getting shot up).

[somemildmanneredidiot]

So I looked over the mortar rounds. From how it reads, it's basically a grenade mounted onto a shaft with a fin with room for an amount of charges for varied launching distances.

The shells for the weapon are, as is seemingly standard, on the pitiful side. Now, the shell consists of one of two warheads, mounted on a finned shaft. Up to three additional propellant charges can be fitted to this shaft, and one is contained within. The expensive part of the shells are the warheads themselves, which come in HE and Fragmentation.

Looking it over, it doesn't really specify why the shell is pitiful. Would we be able to get details on what is less functioning about the ammunition?

My earlier proposal completely forgot about sorting out the motor shells, so if we pull two or three people from what I purposed, we might be able to kill two birds with one very deadly stone.