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[Wolfhunter107]

Spoiler: Votes (click to show/hide)

Design Proposals as of now:
D1.1: 809 model auto grenadier (requires shell design)
D1.2: Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon (requires shell design)
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107
D2: Mule Redesign
somildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107
D3: Swordfish C
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107
D4: Pattern 809 Tank Landshark
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107
D5: Classroom
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107

Training:
All Untrained
All Untrained except specialists
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter 107
None

Spoiler: Production Plan Vote (click to show/hide)

Yes
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, milo christiansen, Wolfhunter107
No

If no, what would you rather we do?

On the subject of semi-automatic rifles, Here's an interesting article on semi-automatic rifles of WWI. From what I can see, most of them had problems of one kind or another, but one, the Meunier A6, was good enough that the French army actually planned to adopt it before the start of WWI.

[Amperzand]

Spoiler: Votes (click to show/hide)

Design Proposals as of now:
D1.1: 809 model auto grenadier (requires shell design)
D1.2: Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon (requires shell design)
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand
D2: Mule Redesign
somildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand
D3: Swordfish C
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand
D4: Pattern 809 Tank Landshark
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand
D5: Classroom
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand

Training:
All Untrained
All Untrained except specialists
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter 107, Amperzand
None

Spoiler: Production Plan Vote (click to show/hide)

Yes
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, milo christiansen, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand
No

If no, what would you rather we do?

[Funk]

Spoiler: Votes (click to show/hide)

Design Proposals as of now:
D1.1: 809 model auto grenadier (requires shell design)
Funk
D1.2: Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon (requires shell design)
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand,Funk
D2: Mule Redesign
somildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand,Funk
D3: Swordfish C
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand
D4: Pattern 809 Tank Landshark
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand,Funk
D5: Classroom
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand

Training:
All Untrained
All Untrained except specialists
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, Wolfhunter 107, Amperzand,Funk
None

Spoiler: Production Plan Vote (click to show/hide)

Yes
somemildwhatever, 3_14159, milo christiansen, Wolfhunter107, Amperzand,Funk
No

If no, what would you rather we do?

[/quote]

[somemildmanneredidiot]

Edited Pi's assignments to account for the untrained specialists being used instead of trained. Any opposed?

Spoiler: Engineering Assignment (click to show/hide)

Swordfish C
    1x basic naval
    2x basic

Swordfish C
The latest of the Swordfish revisions. To be done is, in order of priority:
- Fix the Ratio mount powering.
- Include the new 40mm cannon if designed, on a special naval mounting.
- Add the Pattern 808 radio.
This will probably include a redesign of the electrical systems; if they need it, they are authorized to use a Pattern 807 engine to power a generator.
Should time remain, they are to start refitting B Swordfishs to C standard, as are the Dockyards.

Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon
    3x basic and talented firearms engineers
    1x basic and highly talented firearms engineer
    1 x untrained but amazingly talented firearms expert

Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon
The Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire gun, firing the new Pattern 809 40x160mmR shell, is a multi-purpose gun. Its primary mounting point are our Swordfish boats, where they should serve against both torpedo boats and the - soon-expected - aeroplanes. On land, it is going to be used in the Landshark tank or, on a dual-purpose mount, against both other tanks and aeroplanes.
The gun barrel has a length of 40 calibres, and fires 40mm shells. It is air-cooled (should make it lighter than the QF 2-pounder) and its firing rate is therefore restricted to 50 rounds per minute from a disintegrating belt. It is mounted on a dual-purpose mount, which allows it to engage both aircraft and ground targets.

Pattern 809 40mm shell
    1x basic ammunition engineer
    3x basic engineer
    1x untrained munitions expert, maimed

Pattern 809 40x160mmR shell
Shell to be fired by the Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon. Available in armour-piercing, high-explosive and anti-aircraft shrapnel.

Mule truck
    3x basic engineer

Mule Redesign
The goal of the engineers is to finish the Mule design. To do so, they are allowed to deviate from last turn's very specific motor instructions. Possible alternatives are coupling both motors, or both motors powering the rear axle. This is to be decided by the engineers doing so. Any additional time should be spent on making it as reliable and cheap as possible.

Pattern 809 Tank Landshark
    1x good engineer
    1x armour engineer
    3x basic engineer
    1x untrained but talented firearms expert

Pattern 809 Tank Landshark
Looking at the performance of the Make of 799 artillery tractor on uneven ground, it appears we could build a vehicle that is able to cross no-man's-land. Imagine it armoured to withstand enemy rifle fire, and armed to clear the trenches!
The Landshark mounts a single Pattern 807 engine, which drives the two-thread layout. A driver and commander/gunner make up the crew. The commander/gunner has two available weapons: The new 40mm cannon, and a Pattern 806 HMG (Should the 40mm gun be too late, keep the large-ish turret ring, and include a second machine gun instead). Armour is supposed to be increased on the front (about 22mm), and less at the back and on top (down to 8mm). Total weight is probably going to be less than 10 tons, keeping weight and cost down, and mobility up.

Tractor adaption:
    1x basic

The tractor is fine, but its engine's rubbish. This engineer should take the large engine, and replace it with our Pattern 807 engine. This should be as simple as possible - just remove the original engine, weld in a frame to hold the new one, and connect it to the drive shaft.

Training
    1x good engineer
    15x Newbie

Many of our engineers are fine, but several lack experience. The good engineer is supposed to teach the other ones those tricks you learn from experience. The goal is to promote as many of the untrained/newbies to at least basic competency.

Classroom
      1x untrained architect

Building a classroom/teaching facility for better teaching (not in the office) for the next turns.

The primary difference between the vote and this is that this includes one basic engineer being taken from Swordfish C to handle the Tractor Engine adaption.

[milo christiansen]

I'll just leave the following design here for consideration:

A semi-auto rifle in the new 5.45x39 cartridge.

The rifle itself is all-metal construction, with a simple pipe-and-plate butstock (stamped with a shallow checker pattern so it won't slip against the shoulder) and a perforated metal barrel shroud replacing the forearm. A section in the middle of the barrel shroud is also stamped with a checkered pattern to improve grip. The shroud is fixed to the receiver on one end, and the other end is stabilized via a loose fitting ring around the barrel. This allows the shroud to be more-or-less free floating, so the barrel can expand and contract without binding on the shroud. The pistol grip is a rounded piece of box tubing with the sides stamped with the (standard) checker pattern. The shroud, stock, and pistol grip are all designed so the may be removed either by being unscrewed (stock, pistol grip) or by breaking them down into two screwed together halves (the shroud).

The R10 MK1 has a 610mm barrel, screwed directly into the receiver.

The action is a simple rotating bolt gas operated system, with the gas supplied by a barrel port at the front of the barrel shroud. The gas block is integrated with the bayonet lug, and so very solidly mounted. The action contains a hold-open device so that when the last cartridge is fired the bolt locks open. Pulling the bolt back a small amount releases it, allowing it to slam into battery.

The safety is a two stage system. In the first stage it permanently engages the hold-open, meaning the operator must release the bolt before every shot. This makes it far easier to single-load special purpose rounds (such as grenade launcher blanks). With the second stage engaged the trigger is also locked out, preventing the rifle from firing. The safety itself is a lever mounted on both sides of the receiver.

The rifle feeds from single stack detachable box magazines, a 20 round version of which is standard equipment. The magazine well is in front of the trigger guard.

A tangent leaf sight is standard. This sight may be adjusted between 50 and 500 meters in 50 meter increments. Front sight is a hooded post type.

The R10 uses as many aluminum parts as possible for reduced weight, but it is designed so that steel may be substituted if aluminum shortages prove to be a problem.

This rifle is designed to be easy to manufacture (lots of cheap stamped metal parts), while not being too unergonomic. By using hollow metal "skeleton" style furniture the rifle should be fairly light, while still being quite robust. On aluminum parts: Aluminum became processable for reasonable cost in the 1890's, so I assume we have some we can use?

Once we have the tech I envision upgrading to the MK2 and adding plastic furniture (for less weight and better insulation from the heat generated by the automatic firing of the MK2). Hopefully the war is over before we have much in the way of plastics... Actually it would be totally possible to use bakelite for some parts, but I don't think it would be strong enough for military use.

Seeing as most infantry engagements are fairly short range (for a rifle), and the heavy cartridges in use now are too heavy to use in a military grade semi-auto action with the materials available, a lighter cartridge is required for the new R10 infantry rifle.

A necked 5.45x39 cartridge was decided upon as a good balance of velocity, range, recoil, and stopping power. Cases are rimmed brass, and the bullets are standard copper jacketed military rounds.

And maybe for later:

The MK2 differs from the MK1 in that it has a modified action, allowing select-fire (in this case semi, burst, and auto). Mode selection is done by modifying the existing safety lever so it has 5 positions instead of the MK1's 3. Total fire modes are: safe, hold, semi, burst, auto.

MK2s often have shorter barrels, vertical foregrips, and larger 30-40 round magazines.

Obviously we won't be working on these this turn! The MK1 is for soon, the MK2 is for later, probably much later.

EDIT: Added some more detail to the R10 MK1

[Wolfhunter107]

I feel that that's way too modern to work well.

[milo christiansen]

How so? Skeletal furniture may seem modern, but it's not really (I mean, it wasn't used back then, but not because they couldn't make it). By using a light cartridge we have less pressure to deal with, leading to it being easier to produce a robust action with lower quality steel (without too much weight). No individual part of this weapon is impossible or even particularly hard for our time period, but IRL it would never have happened due to outdated opinions on the part of the various weapons boards and army commanders.

[Amperzand]

It is worth noting that metallic furniture on auto-weapons has pretty much invariably caused complaints on the part of the soldiers as to burnt hands after sustained fire.

[milo christiansen]

This isn't designed for sustained automatic fire, plus the shroud is only connected to the barrel via small stand-offs so it should stay fairly cool. By using thin perforated metal it will cool off quickly. The whole point of a barrel shroud is providing a place on the barrel that is cool enough to hold...

Now that I think about it some, it would be better to use a shroud fixed to the receiver (and not touching the barrel at all). This shroud would end just after the point where you would normally grip the forearm. It may be a good idea to fix the front of the shroud via a loose ring around the barrel. This would allow the barrel to expand and contract without affecting the shroud, and vice versa.

[Amperzand]

I guess it also has the potential to make the gun more accurate, since the barrel isn't being pulled places by force on the shroud.

[milo christiansen]

Well, unless you really whack it against something

I'll go amend my design with a more detailed description of the shroud.

EDIT: Any other suggestions? Things I forgot to account for?

[Wolfhunter107]

The problem with your design is that you're trying to make a 1950s assault rifle using mid 1960s ammunition in 1905. On paper it might work, but in practice there's a thousand and a half advances that you need to make it work, with improvements in metallurgy being most notable.

[milo christiansen]

That's the point in using the 1960s round! Smaller round == less pressure == less need for good steel. One of the big problems with early semi-autos was weight induced by the need for heavy parts to handle the then-standard rifle rounds reliably!

[somemildmanneredidiot]

The problem with your design is that you're trying to make a 1950s assault rifle using mid 1960s ammunition in 1905. On paper it might work, but in practice there's a thousand and a half advances that you need to make it work, with improvements in metallurgy being most notable.

Assault Rifle? The original one is semiautomatic with a safety system. The select fire varient is a "for later" thing from reading it.

I like the rifle, but I have a feeling that you missed the new resource section of the update.

Spoiler: Resources (click to show/hide)

Workforce: Unhindered                             ****
Food: Limited imports [Importing]                        **
Coal: No supply problems [Exporting]        *****       
Iron: No supply problems [Exporting]        *****
Steel: Imported Flux [Exporting]       ***
Aluminum: Imported, minimal usage         *
Rubber: No supply problems [Importing]   **
Advanced parts: No supply problems         *
Advanced electronic parts: No usage
Ethanol /Methanol: No supply problems     *
Special fuels: No supply problems             *        [Note: most rocket fuels belong here]
Special Materials: No supply problems      *        [Note: Hydrogen and the like will go here]
Explosives: No supply problems                **
Diesel: No supply problems                     *
Gasoline: No supply problems                  *
*MORE MATERIALS WILL BE ADDED IN TIME*

The short of it is that we're importing aluminum in minimal amounts at the moment. We apparently don't have any native aluminum, though hypothetically we could do some surveys for resources (limestone or a different sort of flux would be lovely) and develop the industries from there. I'd recommend that we use some wood in there, though that would require some major redesigning of some features I think.

I'm worried about reliability. The safety adds moving parts that can foul up and/or get dirt and mud in it and the hollow space leaves less mass to absorb kinetic energy from firing and from stabbing. I also don't know where the pistol grip that is mentioned is located.

I feel like the round is very small. Like very very small. How it comes out depends on the roll, I know, but I feel like something a bit heavier would be nice. I'm biased towards our 10x60mm so feel free to disregard this bit.

Thoughts on this?

Edited Pi's assignments to account for the untrained specialists being used instead of trained. Any opposed?

Spoiler: Engineering Assignment (click to show/hide)

Swordfish C
    1x basic naval
    2x basic

Swordfish C
The latest of the Swordfish revisions. To be done is, in order of priority:
- Fix the Ratio mount powering.
- Include the new 40mm cannon if designed, on a special naval mounting.
- Add the Pattern 808 radio.
This will probably include a redesign of the electrical systems; if they need it, they are authorized to use a Pattern 807 engine to power a generator.
Should time remain, they are to start refitting B Swordfishs to C standard, as are the Dockyards.

Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon
    3x basic and talented firearms engineers
    1x basic and highly talented firearms engineer
    1 x untrained but amazingly talented firearms expert

Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon
The Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire gun, firing the new Pattern 809 40x160mmR shell, is a multi-purpose gun. Its primary mounting point are our Swordfish boats, where they should serve against both torpedo boats and the - soon-expected - aeroplanes. On land, it is going to be used in the Landshark tank or, on a dual-purpose mount, against both other tanks and aeroplanes.
The gun barrel has a length of 40 calibres, and fires 40mm shells. It is air-cooled (should make it lighter than the QF 2-pounder) and its firing rate is therefore restricted to 50 rounds per minute from a disintegrating belt. It is mounted on a dual-purpose mount, which allows it to engage both aircraft and ground targets.

Pattern 809 40mm shell
    1x basic ammunition engineer
    3x basic engineer
    1x untrained munitions expert, maimed

Pattern 809 40x160mmR shell
Shell to be fired by the Pattern 809 40mm quick-fire cannon. Available in armour-piercing, high-explosive and anti-aircraft shrapnel.

Mule truck
    3x basic engineer

Mule Redesign
The goal of the engineers is to finish the Mule design. To do so, they are allowed to deviate from last turn's very specific motor instructions. Possible alternatives are coupling both motors, or both motors powering the rear axle. This is to be decided by the engineers doing so. Any additional time should be spent on making it as reliable and cheap as possible.

Pattern 809 Tank Landshark
    1x good engineer
    1x armour engineer
    3x basic engineer
    1x untrained but talented firearms expert

Pattern 809 Tank Landshark
Looking at the performance of the Make of 799 artillery tractor on uneven ground, it appears we could build a vehicle that is able to cross no-man's-land. Imagine it armoured to withstand enemy rifle fire, and armed to clear the trenches!
The Landshark mounts a single Pattern 807 engine, which drives the two-thread layout. A driver and commander/gunner make up the crew. The commander/gunner has two available weapons: The new 40mm cannon, and a Pattern 806 HMG (Should the 40mm gun be too late, keep the large-ish turret ring, and include a second machine gun instead). Armour is supposed to be increased on the front (about 22mm), and less at the back and on top (down to 8mm). Total weight is probably going to be less than 10 tons, keeping weight and cost down, and mobility up.

Tractor adaption:
    1x basic

The tractor is fine, but its engine's rubbish. This engineer should take the large engine, and replace it with our Pattern 807 engine. This should be as simple as possible - just remove the original engine, weld in a frame to hold the new one, and connect it to the drive shaft.

Training
    1x good engineer
    15x Newbie

Many of our engineers are fine, but several lack experience. The good engineer is supposed to teach the other ones those tricks you learn from experience. The goal is to promote as many of the untrained/newbies to at least basic competency.

Classroom
      1x untrained architect

Building a classroom/teaching facility for better teaching (not in the office) for the next turns.

The primary difference between the vote and this is that this includes one basic engineer being taken from Swordfish C to handle the Tractor Engine adaption.

[Funk]

That's the point in using the 1960s round! Smaller round == less pressure == less need for good steel. One of the big problems with early semi-autos was weight induced by the need for heavy parts to handle the then-standard rifle rounds reliably!

A smaller round needs more speed and that means you have to push it faster and harder.
A current 5.45x39mm bullet generates 55,114 psi!, close to a 7.62×54mmR (56,565 psi), and a little under 7.62×39mm(51,488 psi).
There's no way to make a weight saving in handling the pressure, they all need the same amount of gun to safely fire.

If we look  at the energy of each round, 5.45x39 reaches around 1,400 J vs 3,300 J for 7.62×54 and 2,100 J for 7.62×39
And use Newton's Third law, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, we can see that a 5.45x39 gun can be lighter as there less of a reaction so less recoil to deal with.