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Poll

Next race...

Goblins, evil kidnappers...
Necromancers, uber-evil mages...
Skaven, underground-living ratmen with clans...
Insect hive, zerg/tyranid-style...
Naga, water-based magic snakemen...

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Author Topic: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - race poll  (Read 77494 times)

Rekov

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2016, 09:55:41 pm »

Quote
(It's a shame you can't make different civs want specific types of clothing, or maybe you can?)
sure you can.
I know you can set what types of clothing a civ gets. Is this the same as how much clothing a dude needs before they feel fully-clothed? So like.. cannibal elves might only need a shift or a loincloth or whatever, because they don't have that taboo.
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smakemupagus

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #151 on: May 14, 2016, 09:58:59 pm »

IIRC Volcanic has exactly twice the modulus and twice the strain@yield [relative to steel]; the way Toady defines his math, the two factors of "2" cancel out.  So if you apply the same amount of stress that would cause the steel to fail, the volcanic will have deformed exactly the same amount (but not fail.)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 10:01:06 pm by smakemupagus »
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Meph

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #152 on: May 14, 2016, 10:03:10 pm »

Quote
lighter makes things better at cutting
no

Quote
Is this the same as how much clothing a dude needs before they feel fully-clothed?
no. they always need shirt, pants, shoes.

IIRC Volcanic has exactly twice the modulus and twice the strain@yield [relative to steel]; the way Toady defines his math, the two factors of "2" cancel out.  So if you apply the same amount of stress that would cause the steel to fail, the volcanic will have deformed exactly the same amount (but not fail.)
What?  :o
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cerevox

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #153 on: May 14, 2016, 10:35:45 pm »

On the volcanic metal, you doubled the the sheer fracture, sheer yield and sheer elasticity. However, elasticity is a bad thing and higher numbers make weapons made of it cut worse. Since you doubled the good and doubled the bad, your end result is basically steel.

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Urlance Woolsbane

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #154 on: May 14, 2016, 10:57:19 pm »

Could someone explain the appeal of the orcs to a Masterwork newcomer? How are they different from goblins? What's their modus operandi? Etc.

Thanks!
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smakemupagus

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #155 on: May 14, 2016, 10:57:55 pm »

IIRC Volcanic has exactly twice the modulus and twice the strain@yield [relative to steel]; the way Toady defines his math, the two factors of "2" cancel out.  So if you apply the same amount of stress that would cause the steel to fail, the volcanic will have deformed exactly the same amount (but not fail.)
What?  :o

Toady uses a material model based on a stress (force per area, or "Pascals") vs. strain (change in length per original length) curve,

http://www.mathalino.com/reviewer/mechanics-and-strength-of-materials/stress-strain-diagram

He treats it as if there is a linear relationship between the stress and strain up until the "Yield point".  That's called the elastic region in real materials -- the material will deform like a spring proportional to the amount of force per area you apply.  If you apply even more force beyond the Yield poitn the material will deform more and more, what is called Plastic deformation, until it reaches the ultimate failure or fracture point.

In the raws, Toady defines the Yield point and the Fracture point both in some unit that measures stress, probably kiloPascals.  That's pretty straightforward, bigger numbers are better, indicating the material is stronger.  But the slope of the linear "elastic" part of the curve matters too -- if you have a material that is tough but "gives way" a lot, you might not get sliced by the sword, but your armor will deform and you'll get badly bruised or broken.  DF combat models this too. 

In engineering handbooks you would usually find the elastic modulus -- i.e. the slope of the line, which is the stress divided by the strain at the Yield point -- which is a good metric for the stiffness of a material.  Toady decided rather than putting the modulus in raws instead to use "strain at yield", which is sort of equivalent, but you have to divide this number into the Yield point to find the modulus.  Therefore, like in Volcanic when you doubled both numbers, the result is twice the strength, but exactly the same stiffness because the two factors of 2 cancel each other.

As I've mentioned before this system gives some room for materials that differ from regular metals in interesting ways.  I.e. you could have materials that are pretty tough but not stiff -- like organic materials in the real world.  Or you could have materials that are very strong up to their yield point but then fail catastrophically with little or no Plastic deformation -- like glass in the real world.  This is how I would design my "Elder Scrolls" inspired materials to be similar "tier" in strength but also different than regular metals (bonemold or ironbone, ashglass, ebonglass).  I don't know for sure how noticeable these distinctions would be in the DF engine... at the end of the day the strength is probably far and away the main thing -- but who knows?

Quote
Since you doubled the good and doubled the bad, your end result is basically steel.

They're equal only in stiffness; volcanic is still twice as good in strength.  It's still much better.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 10:59:37 pm by smakemupagus »
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cerevox

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #156 on: May 14, 2016, 11:30:09 pm »

Okay, im sold. I just ran some dwarves with steel armor and volc swords vs steel armor and steel swords in the arena. The volc weapons cut through steel armor like butter. I can't find a single case of a volc sword being deflected by steel armor. Time to toy around with the other metals and see just how much better they really are.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #157 on: May 14, 2016, 11:31:31 pm »

Material values for armor don't matter as much as they should, since the game currently doesn't model cumulative deformation or damage to armor.  So a creature made of steel vs a creature made of steel-strength glass might behave quite differently, but for armor they are more or less the same.

LMeire

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #158 on: May 14, 2016, 11:44:49 pm »

Could someone explain the appeal of the orcs to a Masterwork newcomer? How are they different from goblins? What's their modus operandi? Etc.

Thanks!

My understanding is that orcs are significantly more honorable than their shorter cousins but had a "How the Mighty have Fallen" moment at the hands of the elves that made Orcish society as a whole more opportunistic and war-mongering. Like, if you look at Goblin ethics, it's pretty hard to imagine how their civilizations hold themselves together when any crime for any reason is considered "a personal matter". Orcs meanwhile, need a reason to kill someone- goblins fight and kill because they enjoy causing pain, orcs fight and kill because they depend on raiding to survive and just taking things without defeating the owner first is dishonorable and would make the orc no better than a kobold.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 11:54:24 pm by LMeire »
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Meph

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #159 on: May 15, 2016, 12:00:58 am »

Orcs also have artisans, dreamwalkers/mages, gunpowder... both mayan/inca and japanese influences... a little bit of the Warhammer orcs in them...
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
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cerevox

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #160 on: May 15, 2016, 12:14:39 am »

Ran some quick arena tests, this is by no means exhaustive, but at least seems to indicate the tiering.

Volc swords can cut through steel and mithril no problem, but against Tungsten armor they only seem to cut through something like 10-20% of the time. Tungsten swords seems to be pretty much the same, except it bounces on itself pretty much 100%. Mithril swords will go through steel pretty reliably, although not on every hit, while steel swords will reliably fail to get through mithril armor, although some hits will get through. It seemed like about 70-80% both ways.

And of course, blunt weapons continue to not care, and will happily pulp heads through any armor. Whips also mostly don't care. Tungsten whips did seem to do more damage, but its a matter of chipping bones on every shot vs chipping and sometimes jamming bones. Dwarves with iron whips had no problems killing tungsten armored dwarves.

Edit: I should add the caveat, whips, while they do seem to just straight up ignore armor, spend most of their time chipping random bones. Actually getting kills with them takes a lot of shots.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 12:37:22 am by cerevox »
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Meph

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #161 on: May 15, 2016, 12:55:34 am »

Oh man, I was so used to MasterworkDF that I forgot all about DF lightsaber-whips.

I'll rebalance them.
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SharpKris

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #162 on: May 15, 2016, 03:54:16 am »

off topic a bit- Meph i think it would be neat if the flag icons in your WorldBicyclist site would be clickable and link to the corrosponding blog post.
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Blightedmarsh

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #163 on: May 15, 2016, 04:02:30 am »

Just a few thoughts on the issue of gauno and FB/Titan civs.


Gauno:

Rather than making gauno an object like an egg or a pelt make it a potential floor tile for caves and caverns. Then have it so that you can gather it in the same way you do with sand.

I don't know if its worth processing it into fertalizer or just spreading it directly onto your crops.

Fun thought; if you make your farm n a gauno tile could it always be fertalized?


Titan/FB:

What if rather than multiple forgoten beasts rolling up ina seige you instead got 1-3 FB each with minnions or spawn wich may or may not be based on them. So an undead Husk FB assualting your caverns aided by a tribe of undead husk trogladites or a bronze collosus leading a bronze man seige of your fortress.
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smakemupagus

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Re: Future of the mod - Progress & Suggestions - Poll on races!
« Reply #164 on: May 15, 2016, 04:09:22 am »

What happens if you turn off metallurgist in the GUI -- you really can't make any alloys, even brass, bronze or steel, right?  (why would anyone ever do this? :P)

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