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[nenjin]

Yeah I've heard the MoW squad action vs. CoH base building argument before. I even own MoW though I haven't ever gotten into it.

For the record I'm not pro at RTSes, my APM probably doesn't even register. I like turtling, comp stomps with friends, I like building up, unleashing hell and all that jazz.

So DoW 2 was the anti-thesis of what I like. Not only did MP remove any motivation or reason for playing slow or turtling, it reduced the number of units down to nothing and lavished all its attention on microing heroes.

Sure I had some fun games but that was right when DoW 2 came out, and I've never felt the desire to go back and play MP because that kind of play just isn't my thing. I don't play Starcraft 2 because it's also not my thing. I still go back to Dawn of War as the right blend of an RTS style I like in a universe I love.

it would make you understand that there is such a thing as an RTS with no buildings or eco that has nuanced gameplay.

Ok, but, Dawn of War 2 doesn't and didn't. I'm not going to start praying to the God Emperor that they got it all right this time in the "RTT" genre. I'd rather pin my hopes on DoW 2 being a mandate for them to fulfill and that DoW 3 is a return to form....or at least a better blend of mechanics. Like I said, base building isn't even on my list of must haves....but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't enjoy laying some sandbags, razor wire and a couple Heavy Bolter turrets and murdering a few hundred orks either.

Just don't give me this "2 heroes and 3 squads" shit, is all I really ask. Put the hardware to good use and go big scale.

Did CoH have good terrain deformation? Last I checked terrain didn't matter anyways.

That diagram is not wrong. But again, consider what I said about my likes and dislikes above, and realize pounding a crater with repeated artillery barrages so deep that tanks catch air driving into it is an important part of my experience.

Yeah, I tried DoW 2's demo and the game was fun for a bit, but... it just felt like a game where you just micro'd squads around to dodge grenades while also pushing all the abilities that were off cooldown, rather than an actual strategy game. This feeling peaked when I apparently fought an Ork "Boss" - apparently it involves microing your units to dodge his attacks. There was no actual strategy at all.

And that was just SP. MP it was having the entire enemy force of 5 units bum rush you while they micro their hero, while their fastest unit just runs around the map re-capping points as soon as you leave them. No defense. No spreading out. No battlefield control. Just a bunch of blobs chasing each other around until a hero slays everything. It's why SM just started dread spamming because it was the simplest strategy for a game that didn't ask for much. Micro and dodging effects was 90% of the actual gameplay. I didn't even conceive of mobas back then, but looking back it reminds me very strongly of what I don't like about mobas. And that's the emphasis on frenetic, non-stop clicking and twitch gameplay.

[Teneb]

Wait, people are asking for more base building? Why? Why would you ask for more base horse shit to manage? Unless you have base building that's as nuanced as something like Stronghold, then the more of that that's taken out of your hands and automated the better.

Because it turns out small unit tactics apeing mobas suck ass as the only point of gameplay.

That's my point. Popping abilities like I'm playing Diablo is not fun. The unit management aspect needs to change and evolve too. If it goes back to DoW1 base building then it's just like turning a light switch off and on again. If you sit in the dark for long enough then exploring the room when the lights turn on is pretty exciting, for a couple minutes, until you realize it's still the same room. Nothing actually changed. You should play Men of War with someone who's got some experience, that game has zero base building, and it would make you understand that there is such a thing as an RTS with no buildings or eco that has nuanced gameplay.

Yeah, I tried DoW 2's demo and the game was fun for a bit, but... it just felt like a game where you just micro'd squads around to dodge grenades while also pushing all the abilities that were off cooldown, rather than an actual strategy game. This feeling peaked when I apparently fought an Ork "Boss" - apparently it involves microing your units to dodge his attacks. There was no actual strategy at all.

Sorry, but that is strategy. It can be strategy you dislike, and that's ok. But proper re-positioning, when to pop the skills (that have costs, rather than being free (and the cooldown is also important, since using it too soon will end up with it being useless)) and so on is all strategy.

It's like saying Starcraft is not strategy because it's all about making more units and microing them.

[nenjin]

I won't go that far. I have nothing but respect for the kind of game SC2 is. I just don't want to play it. Ever.

[Teneb]

I won't go that far. I have nothing but respect for the kind of game SC2 is. I just don't want to play it. Ever.

And as I said, that is ok. Saying that anything that does not fit your favorite RTS variation is not strategy, however, is not ok.

[Parsely]

Mostly I just don't like the idea of cooldowns. Hang on, our soldiers have to wait five seconds to throw frag grenades for...video game reasons. At least CoH sort of justified it by making using abilities cost "munitions", but that almost felt worse because it didn't go whole hog and have the troops actually need to go pick up some more grenades. With their hands. Like we already have medics who sprint out and drag wounded guys back and I fucking loved that, because it didn't take micro. You just built a field medic station and they would do their jobs. Just have NPC Imp Guard running ammo back and forth from a bunker and you need to fight close to your supply lines in order to keep popping abilities.

I won't go that far. I have nothing but respect for the kind of game SC2 is. I just don't want to play it. Ever.

^^This.

[nenjin]

I won't go that far. I have nothing but respect for the kind of game SC2 is. I just don't want to play it. Ever.

And as I said, that is ok. Saying that anything that does not fit your favorite RTS variation is not strategy, however, is not ok.

That goes back to the whole RTS vs. RTT debate. Microing is tactics, not strategy, in my book. DoW 2 didn't offer a lot of strategy. But it did offer a shit ton of "better move that unit 2 meters away" and "go re-capture another point no one is defending."

[Teneb]

By definition, strategy is the overall planning and conduct of (in general) warfare, and tactics is merely how you achieve the objectives set by the strategy. Tactics is just a subset of strategy.

[Parsely]

In any game there is always some aspect of strategy, what varies is the amount of thinking and work that actually goes into executing that strategy.

[nenjin]

Big picture, little picture. Supply lines versus a flanking maneuver. Force composition versus execution.

DoW 2 was all about the latter and very little about the former. Didn't matter if your opponent didn't try to hold the field, if he out micro'd you, he'd win, because you'd hit the unit cap with all your vast resources and just end up feeding dudes into the meat grinder. Oh you pull your force away to do something fancy? Then he just starts attacking your deployment building and eats your reinforcements as they come in, and it becomes a race to see who has more damage to attack the deployment building and kill it first. Cover was pretty much invalidated as the only thing that could be destroyed and the plethora of clickable aoe attacks in the game. They said a long time ago that destroyed tanks would become cover spots on the map to make up for the fact 90% of cover was obliterated in the first few minutes of the battle. Did that ever actually happen?

The whole game just became two blobs dancing around while both players threw aoes at each other. Retreating became the way to irritate your opponent because as soon as any unit got close to death they'd just sprint back to base and heal up in a couple of seconds and come back to the fight, because the whole fight takes place inside a shoebox-sized map. It was just a revolving door of noise. Way too busy and way divorced from the push/pull of DoW for me.

[KingofstarrySkies]

Oh, and I'd like this game to pretty please have Titans. Love, Koss.

[Hetairos]

They said a long time ago that destroyed tanks would become cover spots on the map to make up for the fact 90% of cover was obliterated in the first few minutes of the battle. Did that ever actually happen?

Destroyed vehicles act as heavy cover, and even if they are smashed by something else, the remaining crater continues to provide it. Light cover can be created by jump infantry landing, certain abilities, possibly grenades. I'd have to check.

[Parsely]

Oh, and I'd like this game to pretty please have Titans. Love, Koss.

Signed, Gunin.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

If I can't be killing at least one hundred life forms within 1-2 clicks, then it's not DOW. Anyways, I'm so excited!

[Mech#4]

I haven't played as much of the skirmish mode in Dawn of War II as I did in Dawn of War I because I prefer strategy games where the objective is to destroy the enemy base rather than taking and controlling points. I'm sure people know of DOWII A.I.'s habit of running around taking all the points before attacking your base only to revert to taking points if it loses even one. I like to play to see large armies clash against each other.

I would prefer base building again over DOWII style since I enjoy fortifying positions with turrets and so on. Maybe they could do something like the Imperial Guard buildings where each one was a potential bunker you could garrison units in.

Company of Heroes had some land deformation I think. Artillery would create craters but I don't know whether it was the actual terrain changing or a crater shape being placed down on top of the ground.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Company of Heroes had some land deformation I think. Artillery would create craters but I don't know whether it was the actual terrain changing or a crater shape being placed down on top of the ground.

It actually deformed to a certain extent and in most cases created light or medium cover.