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[kuro_suna]

quote:Originally posted by Name Lips:
<STRONG>The main problem with the current crossbows is that they're semiautomatic. They should take several game-time seconds to reload.</STRONG>

their only semiautomatic for new recruits, for champions their more like a vulcan cannon

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by kuro_suna:
<STRONG>

their only semiautomatic for new recruits, for champions their more like a vulcan cannon</STRONG>

LMAO sad but true.  

[Jetsetlemming]

I'd say the requirements of crossbow strength for a human and a dwarf aren't quite the same, considering our dwarves can carve out a dwarf-sized hole in the mountain in half a second with a bit of practice. I think it's safe to assume that a normal class dwarven crossbow is one of the degree that a human couldn't handle.

[Lightning4]

Well, now this gets into the whole "time compression" debate.
Most things in the game are at varying levels of time compression for the sake of simplicity.
Battles would be far less fun if they took place at the uber fast time rate the rest of the game goes at. Goblins would instantly appear, fuck up your dwarves, and leave before you even saw what happened.

So if you get down to it, most miners are taking several hours to actually mine out one square... which is still pretty damn good I think. I have no idea how fast a real world miner could go when armed with nothing but a pickaxe and no explosives.

[ September 23, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[Grek]

I could make the mechinegun version of crossbow with a chain of bolts and a handcrank. Turning the crank pulls the string back, releases the string and reloads the crossbow off a handy belt of bolts. It would shoot bolts as fast as you can crank it, assuming no mechanisms fail.

Perhaps this is what our dwarfs are using?

[Pnx]

Hmmm to make ranged weapons more balanced there are two suggestions I can make.

1. Make ranged weapons only do damaged to a limited amount. If it's a adamantium masterwork bolt it should do as much damage as a regular copper bolt. Maybe not as much damage as a wooden or bone bolt but still it should only do a maximum of 100%.

2. Handle the damage a little differently. A bolt generally does not have the force of a spear so less armor piercing value. Maybe make piercing damage and penetrating damage?

Right now getting hit by a bolt is like getting hit by a spear so... hmmm yeah slower firing time is a must.

[flight]

I think in real life bolts are much better at piercing plate than spears. Higher kinetic energy over lower area and all.

[Name Lips]

quote:Originally posted by Grek:
<STRONG>I could make the mechinegun version of crossbow with a chain of bolts and a handcrank. Turning the crank pulls the string back, releases the string and reloads the crossbow off a handy belt of bolts. It would shoot bolts as fast as you can crank it, assuming no mechanisms fail.

Perhaps this is what our dwarfs are using?</STRONG>

Some real-world crossbows DID cock via a crank. But it was hard to turn and took a while to crank back and cock it all the way.

What crossbows (and regular bows) do is store energy. The harder it is to pull them back, the harder they propel their missile. Crossbows that required extreme effort, levers, winches, and so on, would store more energy and, when the trigger was pressed, release it all in one instant to propel a relatively light projectile.

So if you created a crossbow that loaded, cocked, and fired all based on a single, easy-to-turn crank, your bolts would be propelled with very little power. If you wanted significant power, the winch would get very difficult to turn.

You could compensate for this by building a collection of levers and gears designed to amplify your own feeble human power... but then you don't exactly have a hand-held weapon anymore.

[Tamren]

They had repeating crossbows in ancient china. Called a chu ko nu or something.
Lever operated, pulling the lever back resets the limbs and loads another dart. There were a lot of problems with them though. For one thing the darts they fired were very light. Because of the way the lever worked the string was not pulled straight back, this puts a lot of stress on the bow limbs in a direction they are not built for.

I did a writup on upgraded crossbows some time back. It divided the crossbows into different types, this references the overall power and weight of the crossbow and most importantly, the shape. THe different types are:

Hand crossbows:
Hand crossbows are small and pistol sized. I have yet to find any historical reference to them in use, you tend to see them a lot in fantasy worlds. But we do make and use them in the modern world, for hunting and for fun. I handmade one on a lark one time and it worked pretty well. Hand crossbows are good for getting rid of vermin and "sneaky" applications. The small size allows you to aquire or track a target quickly, which is good for shooting running rabbits and rats and stuff.

For combat? Well for one thing the pistol configuration is easy and quick to aim, point and click and all that. The size of the crossbow limits the power greatly. If you use too strong a bow, the frame will probably break. To get around that you can poison your bolts or tip them with something that explodes ala D&D. Another possibility is firing something OTHER than bolts.

That hand crossbow i mentioned earlier? I managed to make and fire a small paper plane, which is interesting but i cant imagine how that would be useful but perhaps you guys can thing of something, messages at the very least.

Arm crossbows:
Instead of a wooden stock, the bow and track is strapped to your arm. I know this seems impractical but it actually works out quite well. Because of how the crossbow is mounted the recoil travels directly up your arm, aiding accuracy. At the same time, you need only one arm and hand to steady the weapon, your offhand can do something else like hold a shield.

The only problem? these things are a bitch to reload! Putting the bolt into place is not as hard as pulling the string back because of the arckward position. However since most crossbows nowadays are lever-cocked i would be pretty easy to rig up a system where you could rerock the crossbow by folding and unfolding your arm. This would allow you to operate the xbow one handed if you added a bolt magazine.

Hunting crossbows:
War crossbows:
Hunting and war crossbows are essentially the same thing. The only difference is how strong the bow limbs are. Hunting crossbows are weaker but generally can be recocked by hand. War crossbows are stronger but take more effort to reload which is not a problem for a trained soldier.

Because they are the same size, you can make both types of bows and swap them out depending on what you need the crossbow for.

Siege crossbows:
These hit HARD. The bolts they fire have to be reinforced or else they will shatter when you try to launch them. Siege crossbows are too bulky to move and shoot with and reloading them takes a long time. Thus they are only fit for repelling or carrying out a siege. A single bolt fired by a crossbow like this will go through most targets without stopping. They can also be used to attack people inside weak buildings, such as those made of thin wood.

If we divided crossbows like this ist would make it possible to assemble crossbows by component. Right now we have crossbows that are assembled from only ONE type of material, which is rather confusing.

Smiths would make the metal bows, bowyers would create the stocks. I suppose a carpenter could also make the stock, same skills and everything. Mechanics could create more complex parts like the trigger assembly. The bowyer is the one who puts the parts together. More importantly he makes sure that they all work properly together, something that requires specific skills.

[ September 25, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[kuro_suna]

im guessing the hand crossbow was rarely seen in real battles because it would be inferior to short bows in both power and firing rate

EDIT:

most military crossbows were large and used a ratchet or pulley system to draw them, this was time consuming but allowed for a draw weight far gather than would be possible to draw by hand. few were hand drawable because then you would have expensive, complicated weapon that was less powerful than a simple longbow

hunting crossbows were often hand drawable because you didn't need much power or fast reloading but you needed to hit something as soon as it appeared. so being able to just hit the trigger instead of drawing, then firing was advantageous

[ September 25, 2007: Message edited by: kuro_suna ]

[Tormy]

Guys, its nice that you wrote a history about xbows and stuff, but its totally pointless. Ranged weapons in DF are extremely overpowered and game breaking, also not fun. Something must be done as soon as possible.

[mickel]

The reason crossbows were used instead of bows, aside from the much increased power and range, was that they were a lot easier to use. You could get a crossbowman up to a decent accuracy in a matter of days, whereas a longbowman took years of training to get close.

Crossbows were a preferred huntin weapon, too, which meant people tended to have experience with them.

[Name Lips]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>The reason crossbows were used instead of bows, aside from the much increased power and range, was that they were a lot easier to use. You could get a crossbowman up to a decent accuracy in a matter of days, whereas a longbowman took years of training to get close.

Crossbows were a preferred huntin weapon, too, which meant people tended to have experience with them.</STRONG>

They were very good for hunting because you could fire from almost any position, including prone. But they also tended to be more expensive. It's possible to make a passable bow at home (as in one that is cabable of killing a rabbit), even as an unskilled peasent. Crossbows are much harder to make. They have mechanisms and metal parts. Usually you have to purchase one.

Actually, a lot of commoners would use slings. A good sling is really easy to make, and ammunition is free and everywhere. A good slinger can bring down a medium-sized animal with one shot. Their only downside is they require LOTS of practice to use well.

[Albert the Absentminded]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>The reason crossbows were used instead of bows, aside from the much increased power and range, was that they were a lot easier to use. You could get a crossbowman up to a decent accuracy in a matter of days, whereas a longbowman took years of training to get close.

Crossbows were a preferred huntin weapon, too, which meant people tended to have experience with them.</STRONG>

Greatbow takes years of training if you only do 1 day of training a week. Bootcamp-style training will bring reasonable skill within a few months.

Crossbows are still easier, especially if you've just got to shoot volleys. And greatbows require people to be 72+ inches and possessing of a great deal of upper body strength. England managed to field about 1500 of them at any given time during the 100-year war with the French.

If you don't need to be super-strong, a regular bow will serve just fine for hunting. It'll suck against armor, though.

-Albert

[Zaratustra]

Get the 'Crecy' comic. It's a good portrait of how bows and crossbows work.