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Author Topic: Influence  (Read 3018 times)

CptAWatts22

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Influence
« on: April 22, 2016, 08:03:54 am »

Hello, I'm new to the game and I have a couple questions. Do my actions have real effects on the towns and cities around me? Can I help a Civ win a war or at least survive? Can I help a town grow? Thanks for anything you can answer.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Influence
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2016, 08:20:21 am »

Populations are tracked, so if you kill all of an approaching army, it'll be dead and you'll have saved the town from being taken over.
If you then venture over to the dark fortress and kill all 10,000 or so goblins, before they have a chance to breed, they'll stay dead.

Trolls will regenerate for some reason, but I don't think they'll send out armies by themselves (they're basically pets). Zombies too (needs more Science).

Killing titans will stop titans destroying towns.

The world is alive, so yeah, you'll be able to help out a little. Sadly romance isn't a feature (yet) so helping a town grow may be difficult. No economy either, so survival is about the best gift you can give a town.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Influence
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2016, 01:18:31 am »

If you don't like the interactivity of the game in its current state, stick around a year or so, and the next major version might have the ability to really influence the world through the capacity to actually build major structures or build up towns wherever you go.

If that still seems a little shallow for you, pop by a year later, and who knows, maybe we'll have merchants by then. 

It seems like a glacial pace up close, but if you keep coming back to DF over the years, and remember where it was when you first walked in, you'll be pretty amazed at how far it's come.

That said, Toady has a habit of creating content that depends upon mechanics he hasn't built yet to make any sort of sense so that there's zero game balance.  (For example, cows require large pastures to graze and give a tiny amount of milk, but poultry disgorges eggs at a rate high enough to feed your whole fortress on a couple species of bird eggs alone without requiring any food to survive...)  Try not to mind the giant "Under Construction" signs while you explore.
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CptAWatts22

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Re: Influence
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2016, 06:03:11 pm »

Thanks for the replies. I think I'll play around for a bit. As long as I can have some indirect influence on how the world turns out I'll be happy. I'd love to be able to send out attacks of my own as a lord. I have one question that I though I'd ask here instead of starting a new thread. I seem to be having problems recruiting even one companion. I've tried asking soldiers to join me but they laugh and think I'm over confident or somthing and I try asking commoners but they don't feel like helping either. Any suggestions?
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Lord Allagon

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Re: Influence
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2016, 06:13:37 pm »

Companions will join you depending on two factors: your renown and your Social Awareness attribute. If you took away stats from Social Awareness at character creation, you won't be able to recruit anyone until you gain some renown. Go ask around for quests and do them if they don't seem too hard (ie. they're just kill X animal, vampire, etc. and not kill titans/bronze colossus), then go to a fortress, tell the soldiers of your deeds and try recruiting them again.
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SchmittLenin

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Re: Influence
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2016, 12:36:12 pm »

If you don't like the interactivity of the game in its current state, stick around a year or so, and the next major version might have the ability to really influence the world through the capacity to actually build major structures or build up towns wherever you go.

If that still seems a little shallow for you, pop by a year later, and who knows, maybe we'll have merchants by then. 

It seems like a glacial pace up close, but if you keep coming back to DF over the years, and remember where it was when you first walked in, you'll be pretty amazed at how far it's come.

That said, Toady has a habit of creating content that depends upon mechanics he hasn't built yet to make any sort of sense so that there's zero game balance.  (For example, cows require large pastures to graze and give a tiny amount of milk, but poultry disgorges eggs at a rate high enough to feed your whole fortress on a couple species of bird eggs alone without requiring any food to survive...)  Try not to mind the giant "Under Construction" signs while you explore.

It's not like balance was really important in a game like DF where you have so much freedom; Efficient or not, if I want my fort's economy to run entirely on buckets of cow milk, I can do it...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Influence
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2016, 01:01:34 am »

It's not like balance was really important in a game like DF where you have so much freedom; Efficient or not, if I want my fort's economy to run entirely on buckets of cow milk, I can do it...

The thing is, that's really only true so far as gameplay choices don't have objectively measurable consequences... and they do.  But even then, that's not really the whole point I'm getting at.

Running a fortress entirely on cow milk is a massively sub-obtimal choice.  Whereas a single grower, cook, and having the haulers swing by to pick up eggs can cover basically all food needs with surplus food to trade away for profit, cows produce enough milk to only barely cover two dwarves' hunger per cow. 

If we assume that you can have a max of 50 cows, then because cows have an average max age of 15, you can assume you'll need 2-3 bulls, plus have about 8% of the population being calves, so you're talking about a maximum milk-producing herd of 43 cows, so you've got a fortress population cap of 86 dwarves IF you are absolutely efficient in running them.

That's before we even consider pasturing, the micromanagement that comes with having to watch to ensure you don't overgraze (even if given large enough pastures, animals in DF tend to get "stuck" in corners of the pasture and starve themselves to death), the amount of dwarf labor that will have to be spent milking and re-pasturing the cows, plus the micromanagement because of course the jobs will be canceled off of repeat when all the cows are inevitably milked at some point, but where there is no indication when the next milking is potentially available, meaning the only interface solution the game gives you is to keep spamming the order until it doesn't give you an error message.  Oh, and if you do have 86 dwarves, then you can't afford to have even the slightest gap in milking and cheesemaking, or you start sliding inevitably towards starvation...

The bottom line is that cow's milk just doesn't make sense from any rational standpoint.  It's like saying you have the choice to complete a marathon by crawling on hands and knees the whole way.  Yes, hypothetically, nobody's stopping you from doing it, but you're going to either quit early, get really hungry by about the third day of crawling, or just plain ruin your knees... and it's not like there's any advantage to crawling over jogging like you're supposed to.

Yes, sure, you can do anything you want in a sandbox, but that doesn't mean that game mechanics don't inherently have feedback upon the consequences of your choices, and implicitly, if not explicitly, make some strategies more effective than others.

Or in simpler terms, no, not everyone is a special little snowflake.  Some playstyles are just plain wrong. I can have my fresh embark full of naked dwarves with no training or preparation dig straight for the HFS, but all that does is lead to repeated crumblings. Any playstyle that doesn't ensure dwarves have access to adequate food and shelter is not experiencing the game in your own special little way, it's simply failing pretentiously.

Games are, fundamentally, sets of rules that provide feedback upon the decisions we are making, and the rules chosen inherently enforce certain types of choices to accomplish particular goals the game sets out for its players. For as far as there are goals set forth by the game, explicit or implicit, games not only judge whether a player is making an optimal or sub-optimal choice, but it is the very rudimentary purpose of games to teach players to act in the manner that optimally accomplishes the goals the game sets out for them.

The only reason DF is even capable of allowing so many types of sub-optimal choices in the first place lies solely in the fact that DF is such an easy game that as long as you accomplish a couple extremely rudimentary tasks, you can spend the whole rest of the game dicking around however much you want.

But even that isn't the point I was making, even that's when the game is working more-or-less according to plan. 

Game balance between food types is efficient or inefficient, but much of DF's game balance is straight up game-breaking bugs, and destroys all choice in the matter.  The new needs system has several forms of needs that are outright impossible to fulfill. From dwarves declaring they will not be happy unless they eat a non-existant animal to asexual dwarves uninterested in marriage complaining that their needs for marriage are not being met, the game's balance tips into simply needing to find exploits and workarounds to simply get past the broken parts of the game.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Influence
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2016, 09:27:34 am »

wait there's optimal choices in Fort mode building? I mean I just move a goblin adventurer into a fort and let all the dwarves rot because I have a immortal being that doesn't need food or drinks to get through the day and won't drain dwarves in their sleep or go berserk in a giant massive werebeastism.
hell it's possible to seal a goblin up and make them apart of a small tavern setting to get them to train up their musical skills to legendary all the while running a fort into the ground.
that's a weird thing to say about right way to play Dwarf fortress since the motto for the game is Losing is fun or maybe it's all about optimal losing?
like kohaku do you know fort mode has access to retiring and that kinda does stuff to say encounters of horrible beasts like it's possible to dig your way to HFS with naked dwarves and then retire the fort.
don't know if dwarves go non happy now with Taverns and library then again that probably a point in your favor on building a site with no inn or recreational station. 
uhh doesn't manager task bypass the repeat cancellation? so one could constantly milk a cow.


edit: companions like recent good news so doing something like writing a song or performing well recently will get you companions possibly ones who know you're good at entertainment.
which lead to a rise of not having to go on massive murder quests to convince folks to join you.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 09:30:33 am by Rumrusher »
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Re: Influence
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2016, 05:17:39 pm »

wait there's optimal choices in Fort mode building? I mean I just move a goblin adventurer into a fort and let all the dwarves rot because I have a immortal being that doesn't need food or drinks to get through the day and won't drain dwarves in their sleep or go berserk in a giant massive werebeastism.
It's all fun and games until a siege hits and Urist McGhost starts punching limbs off.
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CptAWatts22

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Re: Influence
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2016, 08:33:06 pm »

Ok well I've played for a few days and apart from the few unfortunate deaths and frustrating crashes I have another question kinda still related to influence as I'm trying to make the kingdom safe... How can I find a camp leader after he runs away? I've tried to look through lists of random people I've met to see if they can give me directions but I can't seem to find him.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Influence
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2016, 09:20:19 pm »

wait there's optimal choices in Fort mode building? I mean I just move a goblin adventurer into a fort and let all the dwarves rot because I have a immortal being that doesn't need food or drinks to get through the day and won't drain dwarves in their sleep or go berserk in a giant massive werebeastism.
It's all fun and games until a siege hits and Urist McGhost starts punching limbs off.
Look getting Ghost adventurers is on the list of adv mode projects I want to see if possible to pull off. so far I know transformations on dead units still linger on and work leading to Full body ghosts roaming around the place.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Influence
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2016, 10:07:05 pm »

Ok well I've played for a few days and apart from the few unfortunate deaths and frustrating crashes I have another question kinda still related to influence as I'm trying to make the kingdom safe... How can I find a camp leader after he runs away? I've tried to look through lists of random people I've met to see if they can give me directions but I can't seem to find him.

He ran away from you? press K for tracks, and follow his tracks, also leave his camp for awhile and come back he might return.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Influence
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2016, 01:04:18 am »

wait there's optimal choices in Fort mode building? I mean I just move a goblin adventurer into a fort and let all the dwarves rot because I have a immortal being that doesn't need food or drinks to get through the day and won't drain dwarves in their sleep or go berserk in a giant massive werebeastism.
hell it's possible to seal a goblin up and make them apart of a small tavern setting to get them to train up their musical skills to legendary all the while running a fort into the ground.
that's a weird thing to say about right way to play Dwarf fortress since the motto for the game is Losing is fun or maybe it's all about optimal losing?
like kohaku do you know fort mode has access to retiring and that kinda does stuff to say encounters of horrible beasts like it's possible to dig your way to HFS with naked dwarves and then retire the fort.
don't know if dwarves go non happy now with Taverns and library then again that probably a point in your favor on building a site with no inn or recreational station. 
uhh doesn't manager task bypass the repeat cancellation? so one could constantly milk a cow.


edit: companions like recent good news so doing something like writing a song or performing well recently will get you companions possibly ones who know you're good at entertainment.
which lead to a rise of not having to go on massive murder quests to convince folks to join you.

I'm not sure I understood your run-on sentences in the back half of that, but...

Yes, of course there are optimal choices in fort building.  If you want to make an efficiently productive fort, setting it up so that dwarves have to continuously run across the extreme corners of the map is suboptimal. 

If your only objective is to keep a fortress from crumbling, then getting a character that can never die except by violence or insanity, and locking them away to prevent violence against them and giving them stuff to keep them sane IS an optimal way to achieve that goal. 

And "Losing is Fun" is not a goal in Dwarf Fortress.  It actually referred to the notion that players should learn through trial-and-error, as well as the idea that players should keep their saves after losing a fort so that they could then explore the ruins of their fort with an adventurer.  I've long held that it would be more accurately expressed as "Learning is Fun", as this is a game about learning from one's mistakes to refine your playstyle to a more optimal strategy, it's just that "losing" made it more memetic.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Influence
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2016, 12:55:43 pm »

wait there's optimal choices in Fort mode building? I mean I just move a goblin adventurer into a fort and let all the dwarves rot because I have a immortal being that doesn't need food or drinks to get through the day and won't drain dwarves in their sleep or go berserk in a giant massive werebeastism.
hell it's possible to seal a goblin up and make them apart of a small tavern setting to get them to train up their musical skills to legendary all the while running a fort into the ground.
that's a weird thing to say about right way to play Dwarf fortress since the motto for the game is Losing is fun or maybe it's all about optimal losing?
like kohaku do you know fort mode has access to retiring and that kinda does stuff to say encounters of horrible beasts like it's possible to dig your way to HFS with naked dwarves and then retire the fort.
don't know if dwarves go non happy now with Taverns and library then again that probably a point in your favor on building a site with no inn or recreational station. 
uhh doesn't manager task bypass the repeat cancellation? so one could constantly milk a cow.


edit: companions like recent good news so doing something like writing a song or performing well recently will get you companions possibly ones who know you're good at entertainment.
which lead to a rise of not having to go on massive murder quests to convince folks to join you.

I'm not sure I understood your run-on sentences in the back half of that, but...

Yes, of course there are optimal choices in fort building.  If you want to make an efficiently productive fort, setting it up so that dwarves have to continuously run across the extreme corners of the map is suboptimal. 

If your only objective is to keep a fortress from crumbling, then getting a character that can never die except by violence or insanity, and locking them away to prevent violence against them and giving them stuff to keep them sane IS an optimal way to achieve that goal. 

And "Losing is Fun" is not a goal in Dwarf Fortress.  It actually referred to the notion that players should learn through trial-and-error, as well as the idea that players should keep their saves after losing a fort so that they could then explore the ruins of their fort with an adventurer.  I've long held that it would be more accurately expressed as "Learning is Fun", as this is a game about learning from one's mistakes to refine your playstyle to a more optimal strategy, it's just that "losing" made it more memetic.
so where does adventure mode "losing is fun but now is personal" motto fall into play? "learning is fun now it's personal?"
your right on losing is fun isn't the goal for dwarf fortress mostly because it's more an motto, don't know where you get a task out of 'losing is fun' as it seem more of an statement. oh and DF kinda has no end game or goals now that isn't set by the player.

like the stuff your talking about makes sense Before toady added in Retiring sites and the ability to move adventurers to player sites. back then in I think 40.xx(?) the only way you could retire a site was to Dfhack the site into living via switching between adv mode from fort mode then retiring a citizen at the site.

I think the back half of my paragraph was talking about if it's possible for dwarves to go nuts now that we have taverns/temples/library zones you can set up in fort mode where dwarves can remove stress of the day.
mostly talking about the new stuff added into fort mode.

This is shifting from the topic of influence.  yeah renown got rework a bit where you can be legendary in a few stuff like soldier(doing quests for lords) Heroic child saver, Mass murderer, killer of beasts, and the pacifistic ways of building fame story teller, Dancer, poet, Musician.  getting companions now kinda boils down to if you want to dump some stats into the new musician skills or willingly to sit down and train up those skills.
oh and might be hard for some players to pull this off as some adventurers(like outsiders) start with most of the bard skills missing and need to learn them by watching someone else perform. 

you could get the person you want to recruit into a dance then tell them about the dance you did usually that would convince them to join you.
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CptAWatts22

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Re: Influence
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2016, 06:51:15 pm »

Well since this went off topic slightly :P Is there a way to speed up the world again after it has been generated? Or will it just be regular pace from now on?
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