Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Trees growing on top of trees?  (Read 1184 times)

Trollhammaren

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Trees growing on top of trees?
« on: April 20, 2016, 03:19:49 am »

Dwarf's worst enemy strikes again: the goddamned trees. Here.

These four trees are, in order from topmost to bottom, ash, pecan, persimmon, and plum.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is a chestnut tree. It is a full grown tree, growing on top of the plum tree. Cutting the plum tree will cause a lethal cave-in. Building up stairs and cutting the chestnut tree works normally.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Furthermore the site suffers from repeated apparently random and randomly placed surface cave-ins in from an invisible source near where this is happening.

No mods, no hacking (other than to kill some weasel head hair or such a few times). But the sky has been floored over to keep thralling mist out.

Any ideas on how to stop this?

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Trees growing on top of trees?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2016, 04:14:39 am »

I've seen reports of behaviors similar to this, where trees grow in the sky and then fall when they realize they have no support (the Coyote and Roadrunner syndrome). I've heard at least some of these cases have been caused by caving in the ground the trees grew on originally, and somehow the trees aren't notified they should no longer be there.
I would try to locate where this happens and then build a solid wall up to and including the tiles the trees fall from. It might even be possible to dismantle the wall when these tiles have been notified they no longer support growth.
An alternative, which is well within your capacity given what you've already done, is to build a floor to support these bewildered trees, but I have no idea what will happen when they form.
A third alternative could be to use DFHack to modify the material in the tiles (which would probably cause a cave-in as the cobaltite or silt you created starts to fall) hoping that would clear the tile's memory of tree support.
Note that none of the suggestions above have been tested, to my knowledge.

I have no reasonable explanation for why this happens. However, if this is the same fortress you shared earlier, I noticed in my recreation of it (new world with the same seed) and a 3*3 embark, that a location some 10 tiles outside of the evil area, to the east, generated fog on top of a construction I made to cave-in kill a visiting titan, i.e. at 1 level above ground level. This indicates this embark is one of those where there are different biomes at different Z levels, and I wouldn't consider it impossible that there are some biome shearing over the evil part as well.
Logged

kingsableye

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Trees growing on top of trees?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2016, 01:35:13 pm »

Can't find the other post I read concerning this, but I've read a thread with similar problems.
Loo(k) for mud hovering in mid air. I don't remember how but one poster had this problem and when he checked the air there was mud just hovering there. When plants (no trees IIRC) grew in the mud they would realize they're not on the ground and they would plummet to the ground, causing a cave-in notification. I also forget if the plants caused damage, but I think they caused minor damage (and miner damage).
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 08:29:39 pm by kingsableye »
Logged

RocheLimit

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Trees growing on top of trees?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2016, 05:15:25 pm »

Something like that happened to me a few years ago; made a post in the 'What's going on in your fort thread':


Basically hovering mud allowed plants to grow until they fully formed, then dropped them like cannonballs the moment they realized they were in mid air.  As this was in the middle of my farms and in the upper levels of my tower, this was not a problem one could ignore; I didn't stick around to see if it would happen to trees as well.

Never seen it happen on the surface though.  You say things periodically collapse over there for no reason: was there ever a time when it did not happen and did you ever engineer a cave in in the area that would land in water?

kingsableye

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Trees growing on top of trees?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2016, 08:27:59 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Wow, that is the post I was recalling. I don't remember it being over a year and a half ago.
Logged

Trollhammaren

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Trees growing on top of trees?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2016, 11:08:33 pm »

I've seen reports of behaviors similar to this, where trees grow in the sky and then fall when they realize they have no support (the Coyote and Roadrunner syndrome). I've heard at least some of these cases have been caused by caving in the ground the trees grew on originally, and somehow the trees aren't notified they should no longer be there.
I would try to locate where this happens and then build a solid wall up to and including the tiles the trees fall from. It might even be possible to dismantle the wall when these tiles have been notified they no longer support growth.
An alternative, which is well within your capacity given what you've already done, is to build a floor to support these bewildered trees, but I have no idea what will happen when they form.
A third alternative could be to use DFHack to modify the material in the tiles (which would probably cause a cave-in as the cobaltite or silt you created starts to fall) hoping that would clear the tile's memory of tree support.
Note that none of the suggestions above have been tested, to my knowledge.

I have no reasonable explanation for why this happens. However, if this is the same fortress you shared earlier, I noticed in my recreation of it (new world with the same seed) and a 3*3 embark, that a location some 10 tiles outside of the evil area, to the east, generated fog on top of a construction I made to cave-in kill a visiting titan, i.e. at 1 level above ground level. This indicates this embark is one of those where there are different biomes at different Z levels, and I wouldn't consider it impossible that there are some biome shearing over the evil part as well.

It definitely has "biome shearing", which is bizarre. A tanner's shop on floor 2 in the good region is safe. One on floor 3 leads to the dead walking. What?

Since the original post, I've also seen persimmon trees growing in mid-air as I've just let it happen. The point seems to be that they're supported from above by other trees, so they don't fall. Cave-ins seem to be less now but still come, as I've just let the trees grow.

I think I will obsidianize the area up to z+1 as that is where the tree trunks are growing. Then if they still want to grow on obsidian, fine, I'll have the world's coolest tree farm. We'll see if it works.

Focusing on my GCS breeding program now (caught 2 in my cavern spawn trap), so this may have to wait just a bit.

Never seen it happen on the surface though.  You say things periodically collapse over there for no reason: was there ever a time when it did not happen and did you ever engineer a cave in in the area that would land in water?

The area where this is happening used to be a 1 z-level high clay hill which I leveled by carving up ramps after chopping down the trees on top. No cave-ins or if there were, such as one tile during the leveling. No water is below. Mud is not visible in mid-air.

This seems a bit unrealistic. I have a backup save for a bug report, but DFFD seems to be in trolling mode, "uploading" for 1 hour then popping up "server error", so another time I guess.

Edit: also, come to think of it, I leveled most of the map the same way, with no tree-related issues. And it was all forest. So something unusual happened here, but I didn't notice anything.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 11:27:17 pm by Trollhammaren »
Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Trees growing on top of trees?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2016, 02:41:53 am »

If I understand it correctly, the trees now growing in mid air grows where there USED to be a normal ground level? This is the first time I've heard of "remembered" growth from normal channeling, rather than cave-ins.
It definitely sounds like a bug report is in order, whenever DFFD goes off its strike.
Logged

Trollhammaren

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Trees growing on top of trees?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2016, 12:50:29 am »

Well, my fort is drowning in giant cave spiders now, but during making that happen, I noticed a cave-in again. So I built a bauxite block pillar precisely where it was. This has illuminated the problem: trees have stopped giving a damn about where to grow.

Z=0
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Z=1
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Armok Vision (thanks Japa, it's beautiful)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here we have a tree growing from a Bauxite Block pillar. So constructions didn't resolve the issue at all. The tree still thinks it's supposed to grow there. And I'm pretty sure there was no cave-in in this area, just a clay hill.

We ran out of iron, and well, everything else, needed to construct the water tower for surface obsidian casting, after building a 20 z-level tall bird spawn trap. But I probably wouldn't obsidianize this area anyway, since it turns out some of my dwarves have become distracted by not having perry or persimmon wine for 20 years - which are available here. And dwarves don't mind harvesting flying trees.

I now have a new question for the knowledgeable. The cave-ins seem to be made of yellow sand. The soil types here are clay. Does this mean I can produce sand (absent from the map) here somehow, or is it just the default material?


--

edit: bonus, the gcs/prisoner execution room if anybody cares. Because I've never done this before and think it's awesome/hilarious. Especially with common peasants hauling spiders around for butchering.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 01:15:42 am by Trollhammaren »
Logged