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[miauw62]

I don't think Doom would work in a modern engine, because the limitations of the engine and the hardware of the time just contributed so much to the artstyle and feel of the game. Original Doom WADs played in a modern engine are still hella fun, for what it's worth. And there are still people making WADs.

[itisnotlogical]

As someone who feels that looking up and down in a Doom engine game is just wrong, I'm inclined to agree. To me, Doom still means sprite-based enemies and objects, not being able to have a room on top of another room, "elevators" that are really just moving chunks of floor, MIDI music, etc. etc.

[SalmonGod]

Spoiler: If I can do it the pros certainly can (click to show/hide)

The only problem with sprite-based graphics is their low level of detail leaves a lot to the imagination.  So when upgrading to more hi-definition art, you have to fill in those details, and it requires some interpretation.  I found this when designing my Cacodemon.  I started with just a pure recreation of the original.  A lumpy ball of red with a giant mouth and eye.  It was really unsatisfying.  It required detail, but what to do with that detail couldn't be gleened from the original sprite.  So my interpretation ended up being a giant floating mass of guts.  The silhouette, major features, and color palette are all intact and retain the distinctive unique personality of the original, while still managing to be a refreshing modern update.

If I can do it, so can they.  If only they'd hired me when I applied for the Doom 4 team back in 2008

And I'm not even necessarily demanding a direct interpretation like mine... I just want the demons to be demonic, and I want personality.  The original personality isn't locked into the graphics being sprite based.  It's in the silhouettes of the monsters being so damn distinctive.  Silhouettes are character design 101, and anyone who designs a monster whose silhouette barely distinguishes itself from a humanoid shape failed that class.  It's in the color palletes and aggressive sound effects of pounding hydraulics.  In the goat head motifs and scrolling wall reliefs of tortured faces melded together that just screamed classic occult imagery, but merged seamlessly with industrial cyberpunk augmentations.  In the unreasonably huge monolithic industrial structures and labyrinthine layouts that so strongly depicted a place that was once a man-made facility with purpose, but slowly twisted into a mockery of itself designed by an eldritch HH Holmes.

Like seriously... to this day, I still feel like Doom had the strongest art direction I've ever seen in a game, and to be a real successor, that's the #1 thing that needs to be lived up to.

Spoiler: Silhouettes (click to show/hide)

Seriously, it's the same lazy shit from all major studio designers these days.  Lesser humanoid monsters are indistinguishable by their silhouette except by a crouched stance and some minor edge details.  Major humanoid monsters are the same, but bigger and bulkier with one major uncreative protruding item like some horns or a weapon.  Compare to the silhouettes of the Baron of Hell or Cyberdemon.  Humanoid creatures, but the entire shape is distinguishing and exudes character.  Even the zombie soldiers have completely different overall shapes to them, if you compare the chaingunner to the shotgun and pistol dudes.  That's good character design, and nothing to do with art being sprite-based or not.

[SalmonGod]

I'm also noticing that monsters don't require as much variation in how you approach fighting them as in classic Doom.

Big melee demons:  Backpedal and continue unloading.  Jump backwards when they jump at you.
Pinkies:  Backpedal and unload.  Sidestep if they charge.
All Ranged:  Circle-strafe and unload.

Add "Run up and glory kill when staggered" to each of those.

In Classic Doom, this was not sufficient. 
There was a lot more hitscan from zombie soldiers that required use of cover. 
Circle-strafe and unload only worked on knights/barons of hell and imps. 
  Mancubi had a weird shot spread that forced you to more actively dodge. 
  Revenants had seeking missiles that forced you to use cover. 
The archvile who would cause an undodge-able explosion under your feet and ressurect (any and all) dead enemies has been replaced by the summoner, who just causes minor baddies to continuously spawn at random and can be fought directly with circle-strafe and unload.
And... no monster analogous to the pain elemental?


Edit:
Must admit... the combat in later levels is very satisfying.  The arenas and combinations of monsters they set up are solid.  Later levels of hell are also worthy atmosphere.

[Spehss _]

Watching someone play Doom 4 on Ultra-Nightmare. Writing down my impressions as I watch.

I guess I could say that the combat seems fast-paced. Reminds me more of Quake gameplay than Doom gameplay, but I suppose that's inevitable when it was Quake that used 3D graphics and monster models, not Doom. Also Quake monsters were beefier and fewer in number than Doom. Doom 4 has that same kind of monster amount. I don't like how limited the weapon ammunition appears to be. Only 20 rounds for shotgun? It pretty much forces the player to glory-kill to get more ammo.

The more gameplay I see of Doom 4 the less I like the graphical design. It just doesn't look good to me. Too shiny and glossy. Also looks like they tried so hard to be realistic while at the same time unrealistic, so that it just looks unnatural and forced.

I've already complained about how I dislike the monster design. Only demon I've seen that I thought was decent so far was the pinky demon.

The music sounds like an unremarkable generic fustercluck. Like if someone took Meshuggah, Trent Reznor, and Skrillex and threw them into a blender for a bit. It fits the pace of combat but I couldn't memorize anything specific about a specific track. It's disappointing compared to the past histories of the Doom and Quake soundtracks.

Berserk mode looks satisfying. Fist demons into chunky salsa.

Really don't like the forced in interludes of story and exposition. Oooh, spooky evil bad guy monologues at you a bit about exploiting the resources of hell in the name of humanity before opening a door. Wow, such story. Really slows down gameplay.


After watching gameplay of it at the highest difficulty level a bit, I'd say it looks ok. Not quite Doom, not quite Quake, feels generic but the shooting gameplay seems solidly playable. Glory kills get old after a while.


Is the chainsaw actually a weapon or is it just an execution tool for glory kills? I can see that getting kills with it causes the demon corpses to spew out ammunition.

[SalmonGod]

I guess I could say that the combat seems fast-paced. Reminds me more of Quake gameplay than Doom gameplay, but I suppose that's inevitable when it was Quake that used 3D graphics and monster models, not Doom. Also Quake monsters were beefier and fewer in number than Doom. Doom 4 has that same kind of monster amount. I don't like how limited the weapon ammunition appears to be. Only 20 rounds for shotgun? It pretty much forces the player to glory-kill to get more ammo.

Gameplay doesn't feel like Quake at all to me.  Doesn't really feel like Doom, either.  It feels fairly unique to me, but then I don't play a lot of modern shooters.  Doom and Quake both encouraged you to keep your distance as much as possible.  Doom 4 really encourages you to stay close (just outside melee range) so you can grab the glory kills easily.  Doom/Quake also encouraged you to be constantly moving, but just strafing back and forth in a small space would often suffice.  Doom 4 forces you to constantly run circuits through an active arena.

Monster counts... it feels sparse early on, but you really don't notice it in the later levels.  I believe there's a 12 count limit to AI entities, but in later fights, they spawn in continuously as you kill them.  The arenas and monster combinations are designed well to make this feel fairly dense.

Really don't like the forced in interludes of story and exposition. Oooh, spooky evil bad guy monologues at you a bit about exploiting the resources of hell in the name of humanity before opening a door. Wow, such story. Really slows down gameplay.

My brother made the observation that Doomguy actively combats the game's exposition.  Through like the first half of the game, he'll cut Hayden short every time by destroying whatever piece of equipment he's communicating through.  Or he'll contradict whatever instructions Hayden is trying to give him, prompting Hayden to give up speaking.  I found this really fucking clever in retrospect.  Doomguy won't have any of this story shit in his FPS!  Until later in the game where the exposition bits get longer, but also less common.

Is the chainsaw actually a weapon or is it just an execution tool for glory kills? I can see that getting kills with it causes the demon corpses to spew out ammunition.

It's an execution tool.  Use it when in need of ammo, or when you want to remove a higher level monster from a fight quickly, without having to shoot it 20 times.  I didn't use it often.

[Yoink]

Oh man I am so keen for this game.
Unfortunately I'm going away for a couple of weeks in a few days, so I'll have to buy it when I get back. Not like I can really afford it right now anyway, so that's probably for the best. But damn. I can't wait to get stuck back into that multiplayer.

Definitely one time when an Open Beta has really worked- it's made me really excited for a game I probably would never have played otherwise.

[GentlemanRaptor]

Glory killing becomes much more useful when you pick up the "Rich Get Richer" rune which allows for infinite ammo (regular weapons only, not chaingun or BFG) when over 100 armor and the "Armored Offensive" rune which makes demons drop armor on glory kills. Combine that with some argent energy max armor upgrades and you can really let loose with INFINITE MICRO MISSILES if you have that mastery.

[karhell]

"Rich Get Richer" rune

"Armored Offensive" rune

argent energy max armor upgrades

if you have that mastery.

Waitwaitwait what ?
Who are you, and what have you done with Doom ?

[Egan_BW]

We did awesome to it.
(Well, I think feats and stuff are pretty cool, your mileage may vary.)

[SalmonGod]

They're alright...

It's mostly based on items that you find, which are then spend on upgrades.

It didn't bother me much...

But yeah... one of the ways this game directly defied Classic Doom design.

As for the necessity of glory kills, I didn't think you received damage while doing them.  If you do, I never noticed it.  But when you're glory killing imps left and right, that 5 hp from each really adds up.  Keeping it up consistently keeps you at higher levels of health.  You will otherwise find yourself constantly in the moderate-low health ranges, where you're vulnerable to death from a bad hit.  And as mentioned, armor and ammo are potentially added to the glory kill drops with runes later in the game.

[IWishIWereSarah]

"Rich Get Richer" rune

"Armored Offensive" rune

argent energy max armor upgrades

if you have that mastery.

Waitwaitwait what ?
Who are you, and what have you done with Doom ?

Reading this makes me think they've done : "DoomRL, the FPS"

[chaoticag]

Also worth pointing out that ammo is only really low to start. You only start with 50 armor as well but that number also goes up. And yeah, honestly, while I enjoy glory killing, it becomes less necissary as the game goes on towards the mid game, but it's also nice to be able to zip around the map quite fast at least.

[debvon]

Any mods or possible way to disable the annoying dash mechanic? Walk over to melee an enemy, dash past it, swivel around to find it again, dash past it with another missed melee attack. Game doesn't run well enough for me to actually land shit and the ridiculous zoom-melee-dash thing is awful.

[SalmonGod]

The best part of this game, the soundtrack, has been officially released.  Fucking love it.  I'm probably going to look up other stuff by this Mick Gordon guy.  He has a pretty nice website.