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Author Topic: Dying in RPGs  (Read 15381 times)

Teneb

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2016, 08:32:35 am »

I see dark factories spewing smoke. Druids chained to wooden tables from 5AM to 9PM. A heavy set supervisor, whip in hand, travelling the hunched lines as the druids are forced to mete out another goodberry. One is brought before the factory head, they were caught with two goodberries in their pockets, apparently to feed their family that night.
This is a really good basis for a campaign. Dishonored crossed with D&D... Mind if I steal this?

Sure.

As an aside, I have wondered what D&D would be like if there was more motion in the world history. Countries conquering each other, borders shifting and some countries disappearing, cultures changing and maybe even technology advancing. Of course, that may very well happen. I'm not read up on the history of the Forgotten Realms at all.

The god of technology doesn't let that happen (Gond stops gunpowder from working, and the substitute is rare and not as effective, so very few guns and cannons.) Also, I thought that various normally Good organizations like the Harpers are willing to go and kill people experimenting with things like steam engines, but for the life of me I can't find a supporting link back.
That's just for Forgotten Realms, though. Nothing really stopping another setting from having primitive gunpowder weapons.

Anyway, there's all these long-distance communication spells, teleports and such... why there isn't a wizard facebook?
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i2amroy

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2016, 04:34:11 pm »

That's just for Forgotten Realms, though. Nothing really stopping another setting from having primitive gunpowder weapons.
The 5e DM handbook actually gives some examples for how you might stat out some basic gunpowder weapons if you want to use them in your game (as part of 5e's conscious effort in the DM manual to say "these are all really just guidelines and examples, as DM you can do whatever the hell you want it you really want to").
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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2016, 06:16:00 pm »

Probably because all epic level casters are colossal bags of dicks, and generally go between getting along and trying to explode their rivals. You don't want your enemies reading your MageBook to see where you are so they can teleport in and meteor storm the place.
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sambojin

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2016, 11:55:40 pm »

Yeah, I didn't want to stat out something from a particular gameworld (but I did). The original post does have some interesting questions to ponder (and perhaps answer, or give your views on "at large", removed from specificity) in it.

We may have clinical immortality developed in our lifetime, if not magical. And possibly even resurrection, in the generation of our children's or grandchildren's non-death.

It's good to discuss it from a computer game/RPG perspective, because it's most prevalent there.

What if you could buy non-death-by-age? Or be resurrected? How would it affect your gameworld, if you were truly in that game?

And even if there are comments towards reality, so be it.



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« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 12:03:22 am by sambojin »
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sambojin

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2016, 12:27:29 am »

For a strange example, yet connected to it's storyline (most FPS's don't bother, it just a game): Planetside 2.

You're not necessarily roleplaying a character, but nanites fix everything. Everything!

What on earth are the various factions fighting for that is bigger than unlimited life, construction, and the futility of war now that they have that?

It'd have to be pretty special. And no, don't post the "Nanites" pic to explain alien tech :)
How much more tech do you need?

Perhaps that would give a civilisation a certain amount of hubris. I can see humans overcoming that, but if only because living forever doesn't mean you can do everything. Non-death, resurrection, or not. No matter what we find to do with ourselves.

So in that world, unlimited resurrection came down to ideological war. The resses apparently aren't unlimited, only slightly limited, there's new tech to gain that may overcome those limitations, and they thought "Fuck it. Lets use an unlimited amount of troops (limited by res resources) fighting over something that's slightly better/more heretical than what we currently have."


I can only hope we are wiser in reality, regardless of the limitations. Especially considering how much the "over lords" of such factions must be, to twist the availability of that into a struggle for their own gain.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 12:47:38 am by sambojin »
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a1s

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2016, 02:59:13 am »

What on earth are the various factions fighting for that is bigger than unlimited life, construction, and the futility of war now that they have that?
Power.  That's what all wars are fought over, you know. In understating the causes of war ideology doesn't matter, nationality doesn't matter, religion doesn't matter, even land doesn't matter (except as a measure of power) those are all just excuses.  Humans are hardwired to find out who has the power by violent means, and even if they are immortal (one might say especially if they are immortal) they would still follow the impulse.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 03:00:48 am by a1s »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2016, 07:12:47 am »

None of the nations ever accomplish anything from the war. They only gain territory, which they do nothing useful with before losing it back to the enemy. Because.of the massive shields over every warpgate, there can be no true defeat, and no true victory. The soldiers who fight the war can never die, and will never know anything but combat. With no life to go back to, they focus only on killing as many others as possible, so they can buy the next.gun to kill more. Once there are no more guns and no more enemies, they finally die, never to return.

More grimdark.than 40k.
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mainiac

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2016, 08:10:21 am »

The factions never win for Doylian reasons.  Watsonian speaking they can win.  And ideology is a fine reason to fight if you can rezz.  If your faction loses to their ideological enemies, your industrial base gets destroyed and you cant fight anymore because there isn't an industrial rezz factory to put you back in the fight.  So the fascists end your democracy and you are stuck living under fascism.

Huh. If people did the math, and designed their culture around it, I could see one in every 80 people being a lvl3 Druid. Maybe that's how DnD multiverse industrializes...

Interestingly that would be pretty close the share of labor in the developed world that goes to agriculture.  So you can have those red neck druids in their trucker hats out in the country who people are only vaguely aware exist.  The cities are full of lvl 1 baristas working in coffee shops where a bunch of overpaid wizards get their morning joe before going off to scribe more spells.  At some point or other one in ten teenagers try classing as bards and are convinced that their band is gonna make it big.  99% of fighters never make it past level 1 and work as rent a cops.  The cleric population is declining as people are too apathetic about religion to go to services or sign up to be clerics.  The most highly paid people are the rogues, who take skill in profession/CEO.  Rangers are survivalist eccentrics out in the wilderness.  Barbarians are survivalist nutjobs out in the wilderness.  Ironically the barbarians feel the most affinity to sorcerers who are the city mouse version of the country mouse barbarians and mostly live on the streets because they can't fit into the modern corporate structure.

The problem is that DnD has a horrible sense of economics.  It's based around a progression of loot for player characters, not supply and demand.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 08:12:27 am by mainiac »
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a1s

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2016, 10:21:45 am »

The problem is that DnD has a horrible sense of economics.  It's based around a progression of loot for player characters, not supply and demand.
Go ahead and fix it. I strongly believe that "rolling" a DnD-based world "forward" a century or two is a great passtime for some types of roleplayers
(mainly Simulationists, although Role Players should find the intrigue around the newly emerging powers fun, and Grognards might enjoy coming up with novel startegies coming out of augmenting the medieval lance charge with communication amulets and long range guided fireballs. Power-Munchkins on the other hand, if you permit me a little comedic racism, won't understand the task- why roll a society forward, when you spent 100 hours optimizing your build for the last one?)
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Shadowlord

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2016, 10:23:30 am »

Let the Power Munchkins rule-exploiting minds determine how society will evolve, obviously.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2016, 12:06:16 pm »

The point of rolling it forward is to see what pragmatic engineers would do with the technology that exists in the world. Powergamers just happen to be those pragmatic engineers, and are so well-suited for such a setting.
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mainiac

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2016, 12:15:12 pm »

The problem is that DnD has a horrible sense of economics.  It's based around a progression of loot for player characters, not supply and demand.
Go ahead and fix it. I strongly believe that "rolling" a DnD-based world "forward" a century or two is a great passtime for some types of roleplayers
(mainly Simulationists, although Role Players should find the intrigue around the newly emerging powers fun, and Grognards might enjoy coming up with novel startegies coming out of augmenting the medieval lance charge with communication amulets and long range guided fireballs. Power-Munchkins on the other hand, if you permit me a little comedic racism, won't understand the task- why roll a society forward, when you spent 100 hours optimizing your build for the last one?)

It's not that you need to extrapolate forward.  It's that the situation as it exists makes no sense.  Level 1 merchants have thousands of gold in personal net worth while peasants are earning 1 to 3 silver a day.  The peasants cant afford to rezz their loved ones because 90% of people are as poor as a hobo.  Yet somehow these poor as dirt towns can afford quest rewards for the people who killed rats for them.

The point of rolling it forward is to see what pragmatic engineers would do with the technology that exists in the world. Powergamers just happen to be those pragmatic engineers, and are so well-suited for such a setting.

But munchkins and optimization usually resolve around finding the place where the game design doesn't depict things very well.  In real life if you have an effective strategy, other people adapt.  It might still be effective but not as effective as if they didn't adapt.  This is why I tell my players that they can min max if they want but if they make optimized characters, I'll start optimizing the enemies.
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Mech#4

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2016, 12:35:30 pm »

I suppose part of it would be determining the value of a single gold piece. How much it buys and so on. In Baldur's Gate there's no other denominations but there might've been in some of the Gold Box games?

Often times, when adventurers get payed for a job, it would be through a mayor or someone who has access to larger funds. There would also be spikes in wealth when adventurers buy magic items for a few thousand gold. Maybe people use letters of credit for larger amounts and it's more theoretical gold. Uh... though you would get actual gold pieces from a dragon horde, I don't think they'd be satisfied with a horde made up of slips of paper.

I remember in one of the Drizzt books, a red dragon had gone into the business of melting metals for suitably large sums of compensation. Didn't move from its cave though and I think it was just as likely to eat people that annoyed it.
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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2016, 07:53:25 pm »

In response to the OP: I think the majority of games these days just treat instant healing, death, and revival as givens, with little thought given to in-world consequences. Not to be a bitter old lady, but I think how injury and death were framed, and how (if at all) characters could recover from it, are things I saw considered more in the early days of RPGs, when the tropes of "Revive Items" and "The Inn" were still young.

The Shining Series:
Shining in the Darkness, the first RPG set in the Shining Force universe, never had characters die unless the party wiped; until then, they were just KO'd, and revived by Smelling Salts. If the party wiped, a Valkyrie would rescue the fallen and carry them to a priest to return their souls to their bodies for a steep fee. Pretty sure it was a racket.
Shining the Holy Ark handled death in interesting ways. Normal death is permanent, but exceptional magicians and priests (including NPCs) had magic powerful enough to return souls to their bodies. There were 8 characters and only 4 combat slots, so the party was large enough that a given dungeon crawl could be completed even if half the party were dead. Also, special rules applied to the 3 main characters; during the opening dungeon, the main cast are lethally wounded in a cave-in caused by the crash landing of symbiotic energy-based aliens / spirits. Both the spirits and the people are dying, and the spirits ask the party members (including the first-person-perspective character) if they agree to fuse with them, allowing them both to survive and recover. As a side effect, if these 3 characters die in combat but the battle is won by allies, they self-revive with 1 health. A good mechanic, with some neat worldbuilding behind it!

The Phantasy Star Series:
In the early installments of the Phantasy Star series, before the Onlines, death was a permanent thing for people and aliens. However, being a sci-fi setting, surviving party members can go to any town with a cloning facility, pay a ton of Meseta, clone up a new body for their fallen friend, fill it with the last backup of their memories and personality, and get them back. The tech wasn't perfect, though. You might also be thinking that duplicating a living person would theoretically be possible, and you'd be right; though there are implied laws against it, cloning and genetic engineering gone awry were plot points in several of the games.
In Phantasy Star IV, knowledge of most technology was lost in the destruction of the Parman's homeworld and the departure of the Worldships; "Magic" and "Tech" became synonyms for "Sufficiently Advanced Technology We Don't Understand Anymore," but ruins found on other worlds and in orbit still contained rare tech and relics that people could use. Mechanically, characters could be grievously injured in normal combat, but the standard Death status was downgraded to "Dying"; Dying characters were unable to act in combat, and couldn't be stabilized by regular field healing, but were still able to move and talk. People could recover at a medical facility with the Tech, or through natural means and bed rest, and rarely though powerful Techs or Magic; portable revival items couldn't be purchased, and were strictly found as rare dungeon rewards. As a neat aside, Androids in the setting would self-repair and recover from being critically wounded and Dying, but as a trade off couldn't be affected by Magic and Techs designed to heal Organic life; they required Repair Kits, or special Tech Abilities of other Androids, to be repaired. Lastly, though Death generally only happened when the whole party wiped, there were some Techs and Magic that could cause special injuries which couldn't be recovered from normally, could theoretically cause proper Death.
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a1s

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2016, 05:09:32 am »

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