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[birdy51]

On the subject of FF7...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Zangan, Tifa's teacher pulled her out Niffleheim(?) after she was wrecked by Sephiroth. It's stated deliberately by him in a secret letter that he pulled her out of there, but wasn't able to save her by just casting Cure repeatedly. He tried that. It didn't work. The only thing that did work, was trying to find a proper doctor in Midgar.

Hence, that's why Tifa ends up there in the first place. If Cure had just worked, she would have been fine. But, that does imply that magic and items have limits.

Which is admittedly silly, considering all the shit the main cast have to survive on a daily basis. But plot armor doesn't extend into cut scenes.

[Parsely]

Revives a KO'ed (knocked out) ally at 25% max hp. It's more likely that you aren't actually physically dying in battle, but just getting a boost to wake you back up after you've basically been knocked from consciousness.

If Phoenix Down is just a potent healing item then why is it that I can only use it on people who are unconscious? It doesn't do anything to conscious people.

Just to head this thing off because it will inevitably come up: I don't want to hear any Doylist explanations. No one needs to be told these stories are video games. The point of this thread is to try and explain these things in-universe because it's fun.

[Nighthawk]

Revives a KO'ed (knocked out) ally at 25% max hp. It's more likely that you aren't actually physically dying in battle, but just getting a boost to wake you back up after you've basically been knocked from consciousness.

If Phoenix Down is just a potent healing item then why is it that I can only use it on people who are unconscious? It doesn't do anything to conscious people.

I like to think of it like smelling salts, or something. It wakes them, but doesn't necessarily fix the fact that they're seriously beaten up.
In the same vein, a revival spell (provided it revives with very little HP) would be more like a "kickstart their brain back into consciousness" rather than a "fix up their injuries."

[Neonivek]

One fake game had a GENIUS idea for resurrection magic.

Since it existed and you were stuck in a dungeon. One of the only ways to get more team mates is to literally find corpses and ancient skeletons in the dungeon and bring them back to life.

Honestly... the idea is so good, why hasn't anyone used it before?

[Nighthawk]

One fake game had a GENIUS idea for resurrection magic.

Since it existed and you were stuck in a dungeon. One of the only ways to get more team mates is to literally find corpses and ancient skeletons in the dungeon and bring them back to life.

Honestly... the idea is so good, why hasn't anyone used it before?

No joke... this is an awesome idea.

If you find the body or skeleton of a dead adventurer, you can add them to your party by resurrecting them... sounds like a fun way to implement a sort of passive multiplayer in a dungeon crawler by allowing players to find other players' bodies if they're connected online.

[Akura]

That one just reminded me of Meridian 59, a really old MMORPG(though I doubt you'd call it "massively" multiplayer). If you die, your character is sent to a Fire-and-Brimstone hell, where you have to escape to a nearby portal. I don't recall it being dangerous or anything(in fact, very easy to exit), but I do remember a puzzle to acquire one of the mana nodes that increase your maximum magic... meaning to max out your character's stats, you indeed did have to die.

[A Thing]

No joke... this is an awesome idea.

If you find the body or skeleton of a dead adventurer, you can add them to your party by resurrecting them... sounds like a fun way to implement a sort of passive multiplayer in a dungeon crawler by allowing players to find other players' bodies if they're connected online.

I've never played them, but from what I remember this idea was how you got a some party members in the Eye of the Beholder games.

[Damiac]

That one just reminded me of Meridian 59, a really old MMORPG(though I doubt you'd call it "massively" multiplayer). If you die, your character is sent to a Fire-and-Brimstone hell, where you have to escape to a nearby portal. I don't recall it being dangerous or anything(in fact, very easy to exit), but I do remember a puzzle to acquire one of the mana nodes that increase your maximum magic... meaning to max out your character's stats, you indeed did have to die.

Awesome, I never see anyone talk about Meridian 59 on these boards.  It's actually still out there, free to play.  There's the "official" version, on two servers, and the "open source" version, running on a few more.

[Cyroth]

One fake game had a GENIUS idea for resurrection magic.

Since it existed and you were stuck in a dungeon. One of the only ways to get more team mates is to literally find corpses and ancient skeletons in the dungeon and bring them back to life.

Honestly... the idea is so good, why hasn't anyone used it before?

The Eye od the Beholder games had a few people you'd get that way.
Find a corpse lying around somewhere, carry it back to a ressurection altar thing and throw it on top, new party member.

Dungeon Master (no idea if it was the first or second one, but I think it was 2) also had a party member like that, I believe.

[sambojin]

It makes you wonder just how unliked you'd have to be in an RPG world if nobody wanted to resurrect you. In the ones where resurrection is affordable by people of the about middle class income.

Heaven must be really good not to want to come back from, otherwise you would, wouldn't you? Even if it was hard to, or cost a lot. Almost a reverse of what people irl do here. It'd be so you could be with your loved ones. The living ones.

I mean, even if it was several years' worth of income, or a decade's worth, so's paying off a house. I'd certainly put it as a pretty high priority to resurrect my wife/child/parents/friends if given the option. Screw it, I'll rent.

Perhaps old age could be the final nail in the coffin. Or an unwilling deity. Or an unwilling person. Or the time between being dead and resurrection being too long.

But to die and have no one even attempt to raise you would be a pretty terrible fate. It also gives a reason for all your whacky adventures. "I've got a sword and some cash. Sure I can take down an army and the evil magician. I mean, I'll try. And if I fail, I'll just pretend it was a practical joke and pay for resses all-round." The potential fame and fortune is to ensure people want you alive, and will be able to pay for it.


It also highlights the massive disparity of wealth in these worlds. It's not just quality of life, it's life itself that is at stake. Your income, connections and standing in a church literally determines whether you live or die. Forever. The rich get richer, the poor just go away and die somewhere, never to return. Probably cursing the very gods that allowed this state of affairs to be so.

D&D is about as grimdark as WH40k in many respects.


It also has similarities of a rich businessman putting a hooker-with-a-heart-of-gold onto his medical insurance. Isn't he nice? But there'll have to be some sort of payback. What do you do for a job again? Does Kelban in EotB2 promise something similar to the adventurers? Just how many benefits do you get from your benefactors, considering the suicide missions they send you on? It'd make more sense if there was that sort of stuff explained as payment for your services, and explains why adventurers willingly flock to the call of the elite. Damn good health cover, that's why.

[Egan_BW]

Also gives another good reason to adventure: so you can get rich enough to live forever!

[sambojin]

It's surprising that this isn't pointed out as the main plot point of most RPGs that include buyable resurrection. Sure, your job is dangerous. But you'll take those dangers on, just so you've got a glimmer of a chance to not die forever like all the other lvl1 peasant slobs.

Mama would be so proud! In fact, I'll res her and ask her how proud when I'm finished this side-quest.....

[Neonivek]

The excuse Dungeons and dragons usually makes is the majority of people do not allow themselves to be resurrected when they die.

For two reasons
1) They are usually content
2) Resurrection is quite harrowing.

[Tawa]

Perhaps old age could be the final nail in the coffin. ... Or an unwilling person. Or the time between being dead and resurrection being too long.

These are all stopping points for D&D life. If somebody doesn't want to go back, they don't have to; all but the most powerful spells (like Wish and True Resurrection) have time limits; and you get a dice roll number of years after reaching Venerable age before you keel over permanently.

So you can't really live forever without certain artifacts, magical items, and a couple obscure prestige classes. The closest you could get without those is probably having a couple of wizards who repeatedly reincarnate one another when the other dies, which still has wacky stuff like a male dwarf coming back as a female elf and other such silliness (oft culminating in things like a Water Orc wizard who gets enough free bonuses to STR and CON from race to make a passable melee combatant in emergency situations.)

4th Edition throws all that out the window of course, by the time you're epic level the game expects you to die, like, daily, but you get to come back with more or less no drawbacks.

[sambojin]

But before those stopping points, it all gets a bit worrying. That the churches preach to the peasants "This is your lot in life, be content with it.", while ressing the rich and powerful.

That most of the higher-ups stay dead does show that maybe there's something to it. When you can literally talk to dead people, or travel to that plane and ask in person, heaven probably makes a lot more sense. It really is pretty damn good, and it tends to be the BBEGs that get into necromancy and being raised, because they really don't want to stay where they went. And it has to be a pretty extreme reason for a good guy to want to intercede if it's new business that hasn't got much to do with them.

Good guys:

"Hey Tim, sorry to interrupt your existence of eternal contentment, but we've got dragon problems again. In a dungeon. Should be pretty easy. There's riches, fame and bitches in it for you as well."

"What? Fuck! Again? Ok then, but this is the last time! In fact, nah, fuck ya. You sort it. I'm not leaving this awesome place to travel to your tiny, little, shithole world and sort your problems in some dank dungeon. Not my problem, bro. I've done my bit, that's why I'm here. You deal with it."


Evil guys:

"Hey Tim, we've got an immensely dangerous thing for you to do that will have you reviled by gods and mortals alike. It's nasty. Something to do with a dragon in a dungeon. You can keep the dungeon afterwards, but it's a bit leaky and there's some back-rent to be paid. A lot of back-rent, actually."

"Yes! Please. Anything! I'll even pay you. Anything you ask! Just get me the fuck out of here. The pain........."