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[FantasticDorf]

A meaningful addition to this old topic is that the friends need IS fufilled by both socialising in a tavern (with other people of that specific friend group) and talking in meeting zones with no assigned job.

However only the starting dwarves ever form a friend relationship with each other, whilst all other migrants will remain at best either lovers or 'Freindly Terms' which is usually the prelude to freindship but in about a year's playthrough of laid back socialisation, no dwarves besides the founders have made any attempt to become friends. Maybe on part of impatience but they have had ample time to socialise.
Speculatively I believe that the immigrating dwarves have already fulfilled their friends need offsite in worldgen too effectively and don't form new friends when they arrive to the site and subsequently start missing those friends. Or that dwarves don't act on needs outside of the location zones as a possible bug.

• Somebody mentioned that alcohol pernamently changes the personality of Dwarves, to the current issue this looks like it would be relevant, ass the only negative social trait of this is that it makes them less polite, and its worth wondering if they are less polite they won't engage in social interaction such as offering compliments despite being more outgoing

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[CE_CHANGE_PERSONALITY:FACET:BASHFUL:-50:FACET:PRIVACY:-50:FACET:BRAVERY:25:FACET:CONFIDENCE:25:FACET:POLITENESS:-25:FACET:THOUGHTLESSNESS:25:PROB:100:SIZE_DILUTES:START:10:PEAK:120:END:480:DWF_STRETCH:4]
Investigating this with a third party application which can trace out of site familiar/friend relations would be useful.

[Fleeting Frames]

On that note, the repeatedly mentioned need to wander can be met by hunt/gather/fish jobs, according to Toady.

Testing right now, and confirmed for herbalism, hunting (filled only after completing the job to return kill - it's also exciting fighting, btw), and fishing. Adding to wiki.

[FantasticDorf]

Can you simulate this in the caverns or is a overworld only occurance, because if you can make a "Park" out of some muddied stone to grow cavern harvestables & trees, you could deliberately make these areas just so dwarves can keep occupied without going outside.

It might arguably change also with the ability to send out groups in the upcoming artifact arc.

[Fleeting Frames]

Don't see why not - otherwise would require there being some logic that Toady didn't mention in FotF on how they're supposed to be filled. Try it and report back?

(Myself, I'm likely going to make orchards 'till embarking on glacier, so moot point.)

And yeah, I can imagine the groups may be able to fulfil need to wander, though not confirmed 'till tested.

[Sanctume]

As for wandering, I've seen dwarves go wandering about on the surface, coming back with satisfied needs.

Given how other need satisfaction violates burrows, I wouldn't be surprised if the morons violating civilian alert burrows going on walkabouts out to enemy siegers are trying to do just that.

Hmm.  I've observed this in 42.06 Breadbowl.  Had a squad not actively training.  Gave squad order to move to an area outside the fortress.  Then later cancelled move / station order.  So the squad is not active. 

Sometimes, I see some lone squad member hang out on the last move order spot with No Job indicator.  Could be related to wandering, perhaps?  Or just a remnant pathing of a cancelled move order.

[Altaree]

Squad move orders seem to leave the last spot moved to as the dwarf's favorite place.  Kind of like how the wagon is were dwarves congregate before you create a meeting hall.  The last 'move to' location seems to be the dwarf's meeting hall.

[FantasticDorf]

I've mentioned this before, but i've only managed to get so much mutual success in my fortress for dwarves by micromanaging a bug with action zones which creates difficulty with locations because they remain permanently like Altree describes the favourite location for them to be. Like storage piles, action zones only "activate" after the first moment of their creation and this is bypassable by pausing the game then creating the zone.

Tavern setup

• Create the zone which has atleast 10x10 unobstructed free space, some alcohol and tables/instruments if you feel like it, do not set a meeting hall as this is a automatic meeting zone
• Create the location tavern zone to your liking
• Then jump back to the action zone screen and turn "meeting zone" and "active" off and the location will still work and dwarves will walk off to your normal meeting zones rather than continously linger in the tavern socialising forever never getting to know other dwarves though "no job" socialisation

Temple creation
 - Similar to the tavern but requires 5x5 space minimum to exercise purple extreme worshipping dancing demand
 - Dwarves tend to get stuck worshipping 1 god when they intend to worship their second god and this makes them linger in the temple presumably being unable to fufill the need

library creation
- Not so much a issue as other zones, but dwarves without access to books will choose to loiter with no job (since you can only ponder while assigned) so should be highly decorated until need fulfilling materials are put in place

Dwarves will crowd around areas where they require a need, such as a library stocked with no books, a tavern with no booze or instruments (for specific dance patterns) etc. Unavailable needs created by the player's lack of preparation or circumstances will mean that this is unproductive loitering when the default behavior for them to idle in meeting zones with 'no job' instead of stay doing a action forever.

Obviously socialise & worship are the default actions in these places instead of idling.[/list][/list]

[Fleeting Frames]

Testing that gets somewhat inconclusive results.

- at least 1 unit stayed in non-location meeting area for a while, but went to the non-meeting tavern after a while.
- at least 1 unit went to no-meeting praying, and after repeated useless prayers went to tavern.
- at least 1 unit stayed in tavern for a while even after dfhacking them to be




(Even returning to tavern instead of temple after eating outside it, though finally going to pray after drinking - a behaviour not unlike normal meeting+location areas.)

Maybe longer-running fort would have different situations, more dwarves with persistent "last idling area"...At the very least, it doesn't seem to be hurting anything and can help to isolate/separate migrants, so it's not without use.

Still, as the persistent jobs are still there, I think maybe one should stop the overpraying by forcibly removing all subjects from the area and making it unpathable for a month or something, i.e. by floor grates in temple (never seen dances there) and perhaps water pushing through linked wall grates in tavern.

[FantasticDorf]

Its not really as much as fix for the behaviour to micromanage locking out dwarves from temple areas as much as it is a bug that desperately needs adressing that dwarves aren't proactive. Simple things like needs to make more friends can be fufilled by going out to make new friends etc.

Do any of those singular dwarves have needs outstanding from demands or personality traits that can't be met without preparation or decline fast enough?

• Need to hear eloquent speech - (poetry recitals basically) might hang up dwarves in the tavern if you only have storytellers & music troupes

Dancing in temples by the way only occur's when there is music types dedicated to a god, and in very rare instances dwarves will tell stories about individuals associated to that god (such as a night troll who found the devotion to the death god, a historical event my dwarves liked retelling a lot)

Also remembering that even though the library didn't have a active meeting zone, dwarves will pile up in there and not fufill their needs at all so there's compelling evidence that locations trap dwarves who idle in there because of this and make fufilling their needs actively harder to do by constantly occupying their time with "worship" & "socialising".

[Fleeting Frames]

Well, those particular singular dwarves had couple like "unfocused due not practising a craft" if that matters (test embark, so didn't build/make anything.)

And huh. Religious dances? Cool, must be pretty rare though.

Can't comment on that aspect of libraries; haven't paid attention enough in longer forts perhaps.

[Sanctume]

Since locations can overlap, any test done in say 5x5 locations that are all meeting area, tavern, library, and temple?

Then you can add 1x1 tile location for each to put chest, and more for needed furnitures (table, chairs, bookcase, bedrooms)

[Fleeting Frames]

Can't grate those buildings, though hm...Can build them over unfloored downstairs. Do they leave water if flooded to swimming level?



Have a library with purple ponderer inside™.

Result: Gonna keep pondering while in 6/7 water. Though they got pushed around and eventually left the library, still pondering. Drank, and returned to pondering, still outside the library zone. Though they returned to other locations after sleeping, and I believe didn't gain exp outside (only 5 exp total inside+outside)



So, making their location unpathable may not completely shake them free from the job.
EDIT: Experiments with overlapping temples and taverns:

Quick test with hacking a dwarf to be badly distracted without a prayer, then placing a temple over the tavern/meeting area resulted in them keeping on doing socializing jobs, even after being interrupted by drinking, sleeping and gathering plants, and even felling a tree outside both zones, even after retiring the temple and planting a new one. Only got prayers after retired both, then first planted temple, then planted tavern.

Which seemed to be less persistent with just praying, though still quite sticky (expect for dubious worshipper, who never prayed) and while everyone managed to do socializing job they tended to go right back to sticky-praying afterwards.

Hm...

Wait a sec!



Worship song



Worship poetry that should change values (but found no change over the year and half of testing)

They never do any tavern labours when temple is first, I guess. Thanks for telling me about non-praying jobs, FantasticDorf; I had given up on them completely.

Overall, while praying is still sticky/#1 activity in temples, could be that I just made too small temples before after seeing only praying?
It's over a millennia old world here, though, so time for them to emerge.
It's inconsistent enough to drive some needs to brown and doesn't fulfil some needs (though at least 1 singer could argue and meet friends later, somehow, while listeners couldn't [Seems only some dwarves performed, with others just listening. Indication of needing to worship the god you're singing to?]),
but I guess temples are more useful than I previously thought,
to the point of being capable of replacing tavern in its' entirety for {your citizens who are not dubious worshippers and know and like to perform religious performances generated in worldgen}, and if you lay tavern over temple, allow dubious worshippers to socialize between themselves (creating cliques who never communicate in same 10x10 meter space!).

However. What if the location was partially on youngest, partially oldest zone?

A quick test confirms that it's about the lowest numbered activity zone, not location.
Another quick test shows that two adjacent 5x5 zones don't get merged into 10x5 floor space (drat).
A third test shows that insufficient floor space temple(d-x dots)-tavern-sufficient floor space temple does allow them to keep and repeat religious performances


A fourth test with checkerboard temple-tavern-temple resulted in mostly praying, but at least 1 socializer moving to temple part of checkerboard, and starting praying after a nap, and much rarer other way around.

One could ensure "accidentally" moving around by making them dodge (via sparring, wooden ballista, lowest-speed roller minecarts or whatnot), though if they get observer experience it's going to contaminate your scholars.

However. I definitely know/have a new idea on how to define temple/tavern zones (Albeit aesthetically, this doesn't play too well with individual temples.)

{All testing done in 43.03}

[FantasticDorf]

Im not particularly even sure what the focused state of mind particularly offers benefits to (from what i've heard its all around improvements), but all dances work off a minimum space of 5x5 free floorspace regardless where they are and in theory depending on the music (which is more specific in temples) you can put stationary instruments in there easier.

I sincerely hope that focused minds and 0 needs aren't now a pre-requisite to pathing onto normal social behaviour with making friends and some marriages because that makes DF virtually unplayable in the long run juggling all these very hard to cater for dwarves.

[PatrikLundell]

Don't worry: the dorfs are completely incapable of taking any deliberate action to become friends, lovers and spouses regardless of their minds being focused or not. It's all brownian motion.

[FantasticDorf]

Just throwing it out there, because i've never actually heard of a player managing to make their dwarves 100% needs fufilled and happy, though you could try doing so in DFhack and reporting back whether it has any difference.

(Maybe a script that automatically overclocks needs to always be set to full so people are 'focused' all the whille)

If there is a difference then obviously this pushes the demand for this bug to be fixed up to critical because then its actively blocking the game systems needed to maintain normal long term fortresses. And probably take the stress of micro management off the player.

Don't worry: the dorfs are completely incapable of taking any deliberate action to become friends, lovers and spouses regardless of their minds being focused or not. It's all brownian motion.

Im pretty sure yeah, sitting around in my own fortress where they have lots of space to idle around in chatting not really getting anywhere with the discussions. I did get a lover though by assigning a dorm room and pushing the beds together so the batchelor's spend as much personal space next to each other as possible, pre-tavern update those places were baby factories.