Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[evilcherry]

Wicker is dried plant fibers! That's what I was proposing. I suppose the straw is pointless. Just make layers of fibers until you have a thick, hard shield.

The straw is not pointless - remember energy = force x distance. More distance can dissipate more energy.
You might also be surprised with how easy it is to deflect a projectile: the Greeks put a piece of cloth below their shield to protect their legs from arrows. Some Japanese samurai carried a Horo, or a piece of cloth on a balloon-shaped wicker frame, on their backs, and this is considered enough protection from stray arrows beside their leather armor.

Regardless I think battlefield fortification and shields are two very different things.

[Parsely]

Giving individual people shields is way better than building pavises. If our guys are carrying a pavise, then the enemy will just wait until our guys come out from behind it to throw their projectiles. Not to mention shields can be used for more than just deflecting thrown objects. They give individual soldiers more options in single combat.

A pavise is a highly situational asset, whereas shields allow for much more flexible options during combat for the same benefit. The whole point of a pavise is to protect men who need their hands to do other things. It's unsuited for men planning to engage in hand-to-hand combat.

[evilcherry]

You forget that men can just throw their projectiles at a general direction rather than targeting at any specific enemy.

Also, by building these grass barriers, we can build insulating homes once we have befriended the other.

[Parsely]

Why would they throw their projectiles at the large stationary shields we've made, when there is nothing to hit? If everyone has their own shield, then we're much more flexible in what formations we take. With large, cumbersome shields, we're asking to get surrounded in battle. Not to mention heavy pavises that can't be carried by one person would be difficult to transport long distances across the river and through the jungle to the enemy tribe, if we want to take the fight to them. There's a reason that people carried individual shields instead of what you're proposing. I don't see the point in battlefield fortifications when the battles we fight aren't sieges but skirmishes between two groups of, I would assume, 10 or so people.

[evilcherry]

Why would they throw their projectiles at the large stationary shields we've made, when there is nothing to hit? If everyone has their own shield, then we're much more flexible in what formations we take. With large, cumbersome shields, we're asking to get surrounded in battle. Not to mention heavy pavises that can't be carried by one person would be difficult to transport long distances across the river and through the jungle to the enemy tribe, if we want to take the fight to them. There's a reason that people carried individual shields instead of what you're proposing. I don't see the point in battlefield fortifications when the battles we fight aren't sieges but skirmishes between two groups of, I would assume, 10 or so people.

Which now boils down to how many people are there on each side. I would say thousands.

We have archery. Mass archers hiding behind pavises are notoriously hard to kill at range. If they decides to charge at us, we have a more powerful countercharge in the form of mounted men.

When we are talking about tens of people, throwing pain light at their tents at night then run would be a better way to fight....
... which might be a better idea.

[Aseaheru]

We dont have archery. We have spear thrower stick things though. The enemy does have archery.

[evilcherry]

We dont have archery. We have spear thrower stick things though. The enemy does have archery.

Apologies. that said our thingy looks like some torsional stick thrower. Great for emplaced positions.

[Sanctume]

If we're on the offensive, we should put fire on our spear and burn their sleepy huts.

[RAM]

I really don't see how practical it is to be "slapping down" javelins. There is a decent risk of slapping them into your friends, a decent risk of missing and getting skewered, a decent risk of being hit by a different javelin while slapping down another, and a decent risk of being someone who just doesn't have the reactions to have any hope of doing it at all. The Romans for example were quite famous for their being practical about warfare and also quite famout for using javelins and had no shortage of encounters with people who had shields. And lets not forget that we don't actually have much in the way of professional soldiers...

Shields that are actually useful in close combat would not be useless against ranged attacks, but they can hardly be considered an effective counter-agency.

[Parsely]

Roman javelins are very very different from what we're facing here. Pilum were designed to make shields useless if they pierced them because shields were effective at stopping javelins from killing the men they were being thrown at, which is our goal here! But our enemy isn't using Pilums, they're throwing sticks with sharpened rock lashed to the head. Surely wicker shields are a more versatile solution to this problem. Not only will they be effective at stopping javelins, they'll increase our effectiveness in a melee.

[evilcherry]

Which doesn't really matter. If a javelin is embedded in a shield, it will be half useless anyway, unless it is the big shields like the Greeks or the Romans carried, which are basically man portable battlefield fortifications.

In any case, if we are basically fighting skirmishes rather than a pitched battle at the crossing, we are still way, way better off by raiding their tents at night than trying to win every skirmish.

[Parsely]

Which doesn't really matter. If a javelin is embedded in a shield, it will be half useless anyway-

The head of a spear is the only part that will typically pierce a shield. Pilums had very long and thin heads that could pierce, then slide through a shield. These javelins we're facing simply have sharp rock spearheads. Chances are the head will pierce, the length of which is almost certainly only an inch to a few inches at best if the common lengths of spearheads is anything to go by, and then the weight of the spear will cause it to fall out or the would-be victim will remove it and carry on.

I'm not really commenting on their bows since I doubt any kind of self bow they could make would be very powerful compared to spears that are thrown.

In any case, if we are basically fighting skirmishes rather than a pitched battle at the crossing, we are still way, way better off by raiding their tents at night than trying to win every skirmish.

I agree with that. Raids are better than trying to engage in a large, risky battle. Which means that shields are still the better option. Pavises are too unwieldy to be useful in a raid.

-unless it is the big shields like the Greeks or the Romans carried, which are basically man portable battlefield fortifications.

At this point I need to ask: what exactly is your definition of  "battlefield fortification"? Are you proposing Scutums or are you proposing medieval pavises? I consider pavises to be big, heavy shields that can be placed down for protection, and are too heavy for someone to use in melee.

[evilcherry]

Nor Roman tower shields or Greek Aspides are wieldy enough to use in melee. They are only good in formations. Once out of it their weight will bog the soldier down.

In addition, you are talking wicker shields. Unless they are the dried, seasoned, and oiled variety, there will still be a good chance that spears will get lodged in it. This won't matter for the grass pavise as it is designed to catch the spears inside it without losing integrity.

Also I think we are locked into a pitched battle of attrition around the river crossing. We can go around them but they are not enough of them to actually attack, so better just throw fire at them at night.

[RAM]

Water Roars: The children of the roars and the children of the hunters play together in the lakes and rivers, and learn how to remain buoyant and cooperate in aquatic operations.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Got around to updating the thread title.  Anyway, could people clarify/restate exactly which proposal they are supporting?  There's a few that seem murky and I don't wish to make an error.  To make it the most clear, could you utilize the space battles system of a bolded '[X] <Proposal>'?  Makes things a bit more clear.