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FUCK YES LET'S LEAVE GET HYPE YEY

Casual yes, let's leave and get independence done with

Meh, probably just scribble all over my vote ballot to spite tryhards

Casual no, let's remain and get integration done with

FUCK NO LET'S REMAIN GET CALM YEY

[palsch]

But... they didn't disagree with anything the EU was doing and what they did want to do the UK could have done anyhow (speaking of the moderates here)

For a lot of people (including some I work with) it was about the principle of the thing. They don't like that the EU can create laws that apply to the UK. Of course, those laws are enacted by Parliament and they can rarely name any that they disagree with or that they can't be convinced are sensible (such as fishery quotas).

There is also a fear that we will be dragged into the ever closer union, despite having negotiated an explicit exemption from that. Others believe that the EU in its current form is beyond reform and unsustainable. There are genuine debates to be had about these questions, but they require nuance and level headed debate, which a referendum doesn't exactly lend itself to.

For most British voters the EU is a black box who they are told have some control over their lives, and which has been used as scapegoat for a few decades now. Boris famously made his name in journalism by reporting outlandish stories about the EU from Brussels. I've seen a story about other journalists deliberately feeding him more and more absurd stories to see how extravagant the lies he would publish could get.

Trying to overturn these decades of misinformation and blame in a six week campaign was impossible, and trying to educate people on real problems within the EU would be counterproductive, because they would first have to understand how it works and why the lies are so badly wrong.


To be fair, the EU is incredibly complex, especially the UK's relationship with it. We are the exception in almost every case, and our weird system of national government makes it even more complicated. You have to have an understanding of how British constitutional law works alongside European law, as well as how the European political system is structured to really see why Brexit was completely futile. But few people are going to go and study what could easily be a multi-part university course just to tick a box at the ballot.

[Sonlirain]

This is actually kinda funny.

Oh look. It's Cartman wearing a nazi costume sliding down a diversity rainbow.

[TheBiggerFish]

Oh look. It's Cartman wearing a nazi costume sliding down a diversity rainbow.

To OOCQ with ye!

[LoSboccacc]

Something like 70% of leave voters didn't expect to win, iirc. Basically no UK politician wanted a leave results. Intent regarding an actual leave was never really there, at all. This was basically political grandstanding that went right in the worst way possible for everyone indulging in it.

more reason for eu to make an example out of them. voting should be about voting, not making statements.

[Neonivek]

I am just astonished that the UK expects leniency, for the EU to basically massage their back while they leave.

As if there is some sort of reward for leaving, an easy street where you get all the advantages of being part of the EU except without being part of it.

[Starver]

Also PLEASE Dr. Who do not touch Brexit! wait for the dust to clear!

The Doctor already touched upon a (presumably future) de-facto Scottish Independence event...  http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Starship_UK

No sign of 'greater intergration' of the EU, IIRC, either.

[Sheb]

Juncker is under pressure to resign, after his post-Brexit comments.

[Rolan7]

Phew, this thread has been a trip!  I started yesterday reading from a point shortly before the referendum.  Pretty great, for the most part anyway.

It is because the migration/refugee policies were strictly the UK's own, and had nothing to do with EU-enforced policies. The UK already got opt-outs for both, if I recall.

I might be horribly wrong on this, though.

It doesn't seem nearly as simple as many Remainers claim.  Britain isn't technically in the Schengen zone, sure.  But they're only allowed to refuse admittance if they can demonstrate that the person is a clear and present danger.  It's not enough for the person to just be a criminal.  That's what I heard in one of the debates, anyway.

Which isn't much of a source, so here's a source addressing the separate but related issue of deportation instead:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/

So no, the UK isn't in the "free movement" zone, but was still forced to accept and keep dangerous people.

Enough of this commentating, let's get back to the dilemma at hand. The Brexiters have only given the EU more ammunition to further the cause of integration. But honestly, I'm so flummoxed by this event I'm having trouble communicating how I feel. To be frank, I'd rather just be sitting in a hammock eating hummus than discussing the UK's self immolation over their immense immigrant issues.

Mmmmmmmm!

I think the refugees would prefer bumfuck USA to Jordan.  And put them in bumfuck and pretty soon many will work their way up.

We already have racial/cultural ghettos.  Some people escape, yes.  Others are now embroiled in an escalating conflict with the police.  A growing crisis of negative integration.

Even if you don't agree with that characterization of the issue, I hope it's clear that we aren't ready.  We eventually managed to integrate various people from Europe, and it was difficult.  Those were generally Christians and atheists with Western values (not all, but mostly).

I mean, look at the immigrant stress in Europe.  Imagine our police trying to handle that.  It'd get violent SO fast.

I am just astonished that the UK expects leniency, for the EU to basically massage their back while they leave.

As if there is some sort of reward for leaving, an easy street where you get all the advantages of being part of the EU except without being part of it.

The EU doesn't need to tear up existing treaties, and they certainly don't need to be pushing the article 50.  They're trying to make an example of disobedience, in the hopes that other states don't follow.  To paraphrase Leia: "The tighter their grip, the more sovereign states will slip from their fingers."

Aside...
It's certainly not racist to want to control your borders...  So sick of hearing that.  Even when it's backpedaled to "Well we're just saying there were some racists who supported this _{probably a lot though}".  Petty namecalling.
I mean for one thing, the UK was having to accept far less immigrants from Commonwealth nations due to accommodating all these EU immigrants.  It's not racist to resent the EU for that.

[Leafsnail]

That's what I heard in one of the debates, anyway.

Basically everything the Leave campaign said was a complete lie so I'd suggest just forgetting anything you heard them say.

[Neonivek]

It's certainly not racist to want to control your borders...  So sick of hearing that.

It REALLY doesn't help that your representatives are racist.

You are suffering from the PETA effect... or I guess in this case the Trump Effect?

Except kind of worse because people can't put into words non-racist reasons why they need to shut down immigration of undesired individuals. So it comes off as a big bunch of bologna excuses... MOSTLY because it is a tough topic to tackle because it requires a large understanding of immigration, refugees, and economics.

[Playergamer]

It's certainly not racist to want to control your borders...  So sick of hearing that.

It REALLY doesn't help that your representatives are racist.

You are suffering from the PETA effect... or I guess in this case the Trump Effect?

Ah, you're one of those "Trump is rayy-cist" people.

[Sheb]

Well, it depends. The EU force free movements of the people. But when the Leave Campaign put up signs about Turkey, that's just lying.

[mainiac]

I hope it's clear that we aren't ready.

I just repeatedly said that I dont agree with this exact aspect of your worldview.  I hope you can understand the difference between your opinion and facts.

[Rolan7]

That's what I heard in one of the debates, anyway.

Basically everything the Leave campaign said was a complete lie so I'd suggest just forgetting anything you heard them say.

Yeah and the Remain campaign claimed that Britain already had control of its borders, which it didn't, as shown by the source I posted.
So forget everything Remain said too?  Or maybe fact check.

It's certainly not racist to want to control your borders...  So sick of hearing that.

It REALLY doesn't help that your representatives are racist.

You are suffering from the PETA effect... or I guess in this case the Trump Effect?

Except kind of worse because people can't put into words non-racist reasons why they need to shut down immigration of undesired individuals. So it comes off as a big bunch of bologna excuses.

Wait, my representatives...?
Are you saying I look bad because the republicans nominated Trump?   Sorry, I'm kinda confused.
A lot of people have trouble explaining why immigration needs to be controlled, I guess.  I dunno it seems kinda obvious though...
Controlled by the nation in question that is, not a foreign power.

I hope it's clear that we aren't ready.

I just repeatedly said that I dont agree with this exact aspect of your worldview.  I hope you can understand the difference between your opinion and facts.

I know you think we're ready... I was trying to demonstrate otherwise by pointing out how badly we're doing with a related, less extreme situation.

[mainiac]

I think that the western world is having very few difficulties assimilating immigrants and people are exaggerating the exceptions.  I do not share your opinion.

Now I would like to "point out" to you that clearly your opinion is wrong because I say so and assume that the obvious rightness of my opinion is an objective reality.  I hope you can see that this is obviously correct.