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FUCK YES LET'S LEAVE GET HYPE YEY

Casual yes, let's leave and get independence done with

Meh, probably just scribble all over my vote ballot to spite tryhards

Casual no, let's remain and get integration done with

FUCK NO LET'S REMAIN GET CALM YEY

[hector13]

RIP Reason
June 27th, 2016 7:30 PM EST - June 27th, 2016 8:00 PM EST

That would imply that reason ever existed on the internet.

I love you.

[sluissa]

Just then Boris flies overhead in a concorde made of Bank of England gold - 'don't worry!' he laughs. 'I've cut out all the bits the French made!'

All the propaganda work of a Eurozone spy. You can tell because he mentions cutting out all the French bits but still spells it Concorde

[Sheb]

I would be totally okay with the US accepting 3.7 million.  I would start getting worried until the number was like 100 million.  What's the problem?  Not enough houses?  Not enough food?

Not enough cash? Sweden got a quite expensive social security system to maintain, and refugees needs a few years to integrate into the workforce.

[mainiac]

Let them enter the job market and you are ahead long term.  Instead of spending 13 years coddling someone through high school you are getting adults who just need a couple years of assimilation.

[RedKing]

I would be totally okay with the US accepting 3.7 million.  I would start getting worried until the number was like 100 million.  What's the problem?  Not enough houses?  Not enough food?

Well actually, yeah. There is something of an affordable housing shortage, which is driving up rent prices. And iirc, it's even worse in Britain.

I'm not anti-immigrant, and you're right about the long-term benefits of absorbing them, but in the short-term there are definite economic pains. Doubly so in countries that actually provide benefits to indigent newcomers.

[Orange Wizard]

So yeah, I think that most western countries should be doing more to deal with refugee. But Sweden might be a rare exemple of a country doing too much.

Oh yeah, I'm absolutely not arguing for Sweden and Germany or whatever to sacrifice everything for the sake of refugees. But if everyone pitches in (and the UN starts exerting some more authority with their refugee management things) we shouldn't need to turn anyone away.

Not enough houses?  Not enough food?

The problem is - as people have been saying - integration. These people come from a completely different culture. Many don't speak English. They're unlikely to find employment, and they're unlikely to leave their own immigrant communities.

All of these things need to be addressed if we don't want the crisis to get... more out of hand, but that takes a lot of money. And good luck getting that money when a significant portion of the country is opposed to taking the refugees in the first place, let alone paying for their jobs and schooling.

[scriver]

Not enough housings, not enough jobs, not enough schools, not enough police, not enough safety, not enough social services, not enough of all of the things they come here expecting to be supplied with.

Let them enter the job market and you are ahead long term.  Instead of spending 13 years coddling someone through high school you are getting adults who just need a couple years of assimilation.

There are no jobs in Sweden for non-swedish-speaking, skilless and/or educationless, and in many times analphabetic people. Those few such jobs there is would also be shared with the large population of Swedish speaking skilless and/or educationless people (of both eedieh and immigrant backgrounds) that are already in Sweden and unemployed.

[Rolepgeek]

I would be totally okay with the US accepting 3.7 million.  I would start getting worried until the number was like 100 million.  What's the problem?  Not enough houses?  Not enough food?

Both. Mostly houses, I suspect, though. Taking in hundreds of thousands of people all at once is just too much to handle. In a steady stream over a long time period, sure. All at once? Goddamn.

Also, I'd recommend everyone here watch Braindead. It's great. Makes a good point, politically speaking, too. (slightly left-bias, but only because main character is Democrat)

I am not saying all refugees are terrorists or rapists. But far, far too many are.

And anyway, why don't we just build refugee camps in the middle-east, instead of transporting these economic migrants all the way to the first-world?

...There are. A lot of them. I...I honeslty can't tell if this is Poe's law, because you're calling them economic migrants immediately after refugee camps. I'm sorry, I really don't know.

Also, fucking go blow the shit out of ISIS. Goddamn. Fastest bloody way to deal with the refugee crisis to solve the source. Yeah, it's expensive. It's also the right thing to do, from a humanitarian and economic perspective. People are too squeamish about it since Bush. There is a war with an obvious bad guy. Literally terrorists forming a nice big group that you can actually use the military to hit. Hit them. Leave. When they reform, hit them. Every time they reform, hit them. It'll weed out the 'troublemakers' for lack of a better term (with death, I'm well aware), and will hopefully allow them to form their own government, without giving them enough incentive (organizational intelligence in this respect is not going to be, I suspect, a strong point) to dig in and guerilla up. If they do, well, they can't accomplish their goals of having a country to rule over and Shariah Law everyone inside until they do form up into a nice APFSDS-able block.

Seriously, fuck warlords.


People can get educations, scriver. *shrug* Besides, don't you love capitalism? Come on, you know you want cheap labor. All those cheaper products that you won't be able to buy! Think of the the profits!

[Sheb]

Even if you remove ISIS, that just leave Assad, al-Nusra, the SDF and various assorted rebels fighting each other. People are still going to be fleeing.

[Rolepgeek]

Yeah, and fuck Assad too. Gassing his populace and shit.

The rebels have a goddamn eagle as their logo. They are basically begging the West to come help them. Fuck this airstrike business, we have these new tanks and shit for a reason, damnit. I refuse to believe it's there to look pretty.

That's what the Coast Guard are for, damnit. That and rescuing idiots and the unlucky.

[scriver]

People can get educations, scriver. *shrug*

Not without knowing Swedish or having elementary school knowledge, let alone basic ability to read and write.

Besides, don't you love capitalism? Come on, you know you want cheap labor. All those cheaper products that you won't be able to buy! Think of the the profits!

There is a reason of the only two parties in Sweden still in favour of completely open borders are the most neo-liberal party of all (the Centre Party) and the most neo-liberal on the left (the Greens).

[Baffler]

Yeah, and fuck Assad too. Gassing his populace and shit.

The rebels have a goddamn eagle as their logo. They are basically begging the West to come help them. Fuck this airstrike business, we have these new tanks and shit for a reason, damnit. I refuse to believe it's there to look pretty.

That's what the Coast Guard are for, damnit. That and rescuing idiots and the unlucky.

There are no rebel groups large, organized, experienced, or well equipped enough to defeat the government forces at this point, and there haven't been for quite some time. They haven't exactly been shy with the war crimes either. The Kurds have no interest in doing much more than securing what they consider their own territory, even if they did have the capability, which they don't. I don't think much needs to be said about the idea of leaving it all for ISIS. The Russians picked the right horse, I think.

[Rolepgeek]

That also happens to be part of getting an education. Might be smarter than you think. I'll bet more than a few can read and write. Might not be Swedish, mind. But I'll bet they understand some elementary school stuff. Hell, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence, and a couple of studies, that find that kids who don't go to school (at all, homeschooled or no) tend to be around a grade level behind their peers. Brain develops just fine, most of them time. Living in a shitty environment with disease and malnutrition and high stress levels doesn't help, of course. But overall, economies rarely get actually injured by immigration. Controlled immigration, at least. >.> You can still overload the system, of course, and boy howdy will there be growing pains...charity ain't easy.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Sweden needs any more refugees. But I don't think kicking them out or treating them like shit for having the nerve to show up on your doorstep asking for help is really the answer either. You got your bite, mouth's a bit overfull, you need to chew and digest this new population. That's why I want to deal with the problem at the source. It won't go away as long as the bullshit wars are happening and people are worried about terrible things.

That said, I do so hate fearmongering. On either side of the spectrum. It's just bad. It fucks with your brain. It fucks with group dynamics. It's just bad. I just want it to die. Please, please let the constant churning state of fear everything tries to whip us into die and never return. It won't happen, but please.

Rebels have their war crimes, yeah. But Fuck Assad anyway, and Fuck ISIS too. Like I said, stomp on them and wait until something that isn't godawful horrendous rises from the ashes. People can survive without a government in subsistence societies. Better than they can with a civil war going on, at any rate.

[Baffler]

Rebels have their war crimes, yeah. But Fuck Assad anyway, and Fuck ISIS too. Like I said, stomp on them and wait until something that isn't godawful horrendous rises from the ashes. People can survive without a government in subsistence societies. Better than they can with a civil war going on, at any rate.

Do you want Salafists? Because that's how you get Salafists. Rearranging the sand from the air is a useless effort.

[hector13]

I am not saying all refugees are terrorists or rapists. But far, far too many are.

As are people all along the colour spectrum. What's so special about refugees?

And anyway, why don't we just build refugee camps in the middle-east, instead of transporting these economic migrants all the way to the first-world?

Er... refugees aren't economic migrants. One is fleeing the very real possibility they could be killed - there is a war on, you know - and the other is choosing to leave to improve their standard of living elsewhere.