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FUCK YES LET'S LEAVE GET HYPE YEY

Casual yes, let's leave and get independence done with

Meh, probably just scribble all over my vote ballot to spite tryhards

Casual no, let's remain and get integration done with

FUCK NO LET'S REMAIN GET CALM YEY

[Starver]

They will only call a referendum when they're certain the chances are the best they're going to get at winning.

Setting up referenda that one is sure about the result of being such a perfected art, of course...

(To paraphrase an acquaintance's thoughts (not mine), Scotland needs to get the referendum organised within the year, so that they get the chance to leave just as there's no Europe to join, having fragmented back into its component states.)

@Max: arguments against the original Scindependance rotated around no automatic EU membership for Scotland adrift.  I'm not sure whether Scotland's now obvious feelings for the EU would endear them for a shortcut re-entry/never-leave.

[Leafsnail]

That argument would make sense if the drop was due to some kind of market manipulation, but it wasn't. It was due to an unexpected political decision that made the pound an objectively much worse currency.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Note that Scotland will probably want to exit sooner than later, if they are independent before Brexit completes then they stay in the EU don't they?

As I understand it, Scotland is only a member of the EU through the UK. If they left the UK, they would leave the EU and have to rejoin. That risk was actually a major argument used for voting to remain in the UK back when the referendum happened.

The thing is, no nation within an EU member has ever departed from the parent member before. As such, it's kind of just up to the EU to declare whether they'll have to rejoin regardless. This is particularly complicated by the fact that a lot of places recognize Scotland as a full nation with all the properties of such except sovereignty, because that's bundled up in the union.

[Owlbread]

As I understand it, Scotland is only a member of the EU through the UK. If they left the UK, they would leave the EU and have to rejoin. That risk was actually a major argument used for voting to remain in the UK back when the referendum happened.

The primary issue there was that the EU refused to pre-negotiate anything with the Scottish government before the referendum, saying that they wouldn't negotiate with a non-sovereign government or something, only the UK government. If there's a democratic mandate for independence confirmed by a referendum, and the EU continued to refuse to negotiate with us, we would probably have to rely on the UK government to negotiate the terms on our behalf. I don't particularly want to rely on Boris Johnson and Michael Gove in that kind of situation to obtain the best possible deal for us.

That said, we'll have to see how the EU is responding to us. I'm quite pessimistic about the EU considering how thoroughly they shafted us in 2014 and how they shafted the Greeks and the Ukrainians, but my hope is that they will take a different stance following the Brexit vote. In the best-case scenario they will allow some kind of negotiations to take place while Scotland is still a member of the United Kingdom, pre-independence declaration, and therefore a part of the EU throughout the process. That would probably involve representatives from the UK and Scotland, as well as Europe.

I might be underestimating the spitefulness of the EU top-table governments, and their punitive actions towards the UK right now aren't really doing anything to change my mind, but I really hope they come to their senses and see the benefits of supporting us - potentially the largest English speaking country in the EU, with the largest coastline that you can actually do stuff with and the only sovereign country sharing a land-border with England, with direct links to the financial centre in London (or what'll be left of it in the years to come). The problem I suppose is that the very concept of any country seeking independence and doing rather radical things like that offends the sensibilities of the Eurocrats.

[Azkul]

I'm still waiting for bremainers to tell us the merits of the EU.

All the arguments I've seen focus on how fucked the UK is without the EU, rather than why the EU is great.  "You can't leave," "you'll be in the gutter without me," "you're nothing without me"

This is a classic spousal abuse situation.  Get outta there UK, I'm sure America has a couch you can chill on until you get things back together.

Personally I've always supported the EU, largely due to personal ideology but also due to pragmatism, I believe in an increasingly globalised world it's necessary for Europe to unite monetarily, economically and politically.
I believe that forming a Federal Europe will result in increased peace & prosperity, not only for Europe but the world as a whole, challenges that face governments today are increasingly international in scope (e.g. climate change, terrorism, economic inequality), and can be more efficiently dealt with when united.
Since the height of colonial empires in the 19th century/early 20th century Europe has increasingly been sidelined and overshadowed by at first America, currently Asia (with the rapid growth of huge economies such as in China), and in the near future Africa.

European populations are aging, putting strain on the society, and European populations are shrinking as a proportion of the global population.
European economies are struggling to maintain strong growth, and the unstable nature of the EU is doing nothing to help that.
European responses to crises such as in Crimea have often been slow and disjointed, Europe often depends too much on the US to maintain world order and promote liberalism and democracy.

In short, I see European integration as a necessary wake up call to what I see as a Europe slow to adjust to the modern world, in some cases willfully ignorant of the fact that this isn't 1912 anymore, Europe isn't the centre of the world. This isn't the time for haughty nationalism, we need to work together to make the world a better place.

My view is more pro-EU than 99% of people, completely unrepresentative of Britain, many would see it as extreme, probably overly idealistic, but it's the view I've always had, and it's why I believe the European project is a force for good and why we should have a hopeful vision for the future of Europe.


^{I know this isn't what you were asking when you said "I'm still waiting for bremainers to tell us the merits of the EU"}

[TD1]

I voted out (shock) and so did quite a few people I know of my age.

It's true that the old voted to leave more than the young (though to be fair, I trust the responsibility of adults over teenagers/young adults) but it can not be disregarded that the number of young people voting out was not insubstantial. As for any figures telling you how many people voted out of which age groups, they're not exactly fact. I, for one, was not asked my name, age and voting choice by any official looking people, and I doubt if you were.

[Leafsnail]

Polls are always going to be based on samples. Obviously some young people voted out but the demographic as a whole was overwhelmingly in favour of In (mainly because we're the ones who will have to live with the consequences).

[Cthulhu]

Fuck. 2%

More than 2% was out of sheer racism, I'll bet.

Being fucking 16 in Britain and watching people who will die in less than a decade fuck up my country's future...

And fucking country bigots who've seen as many immigrants in the past few years as I've seen buddhist monks.

And watching the Tories cringe as if they hadn't created this entire situation and engineered a country that would even vote to do that.

God damn those other interests.  How did we get in such a fucked up universe where people who value things I don't value are allowed to vote?

[Owlbread]

Polls are always going to be based on samples. Obviously some young people voted out but the demographic as a whole was overwhelmingly in favour of In (mainly because we're the ones who will have to live with the consequences).

I recall speaking to a good friend of mine in England who voted to Leave. A young father, mid-twenties, in his first proper job. When I pointed out that Brexit would take away his chance to live and work in 27 other countries, he responded - "I've never been abroad and I don't particularly intend on going abroad in the near future."

[TD1]

Let's just tell the people who will have to live the rest of their lives with this decision that their vote means less than some angsty teenager who's been fed propaganda from day one and who is most likely ill equipped to sort fact from said propaganda. As was previously mentioned, the old are the ones risking the most material possessions in this decision. It's not as if everyone over 30 (the age at which remain and leave became fairly 50/50 in the polls) suddenly decided to screw posterity, their children and their grandchildren. Selfishness, despite the heavy implications of those using age as an argument, was not a prime feature of their decision making process.

[Owlbread]

Let's just tell the people who will have to live the rest of their lives with this decision that their vote means less than some angsty teenager who's been fed propaganda from day one and who is most likely ill equipped to sort fact from said propaganda. As was previously mentioned, the old are the ones risking the most material possessions in this decision. It's not as if everyone over 30 (the age at which remain and leave became fairly 50/50 in the polls) suddenly decided to screw posterity, their children and their grandchildren. Selfishness, despite the heavy implications of those using age as an argument, was not a prime feature of their decision making process.

I was watching television this morning before I eventually made myself so angry I had to stop. The BBC were touring around Barnsley for some reason, I think they had a very high Leave % or something - maybe one of the highest. They interviewed an emotional woman selling English football memorabilia, flags and so on, who said the vote had been great for business. There certainly was a lot of people in England t-shirts walking around. He interviewed one woman who looked as though she was in her 50s, maybe early 60s (or she had a hard life) wearing an England top and sunglasses. He pointed out that Barnsley had benefited hugely from EU funding since the mines were shut down (Margaret Thatcher and so on) and you could say that a lot of the town's regeneration was thanks to the EU. How did she feel about that? She responded "WELL A DONT NO THAT FAR BACK BUT THIS IS ARE ENGLAND, THIS IS ARE ENGLAND" and walked off smiling.

Another man of about the same age (50-60, probably even 60-70) was interviewed and made it clear that the entire vote to Leave was about immigration and that he personally voted Leave because there were too many Muslims in the UK - he went on to say that he didn't have a big problem with European immigrants like Polish people, just Muslims and non-white people, people from outside Europe, and that's why he voted to Leave the EU. I could go on, if you like, but I might depress myself again.

[TD1]

Whilst a nice story, I'm sure I could find an equally bumbling remainer out there if you want me to bother looking.

I forgot about your dastardly editing habits.

Individual stories compiled by the BBC are not going to convince me that racist old people with no idea turned the tide of the vote. I'd be more inclined to listen if it were backed up with....actual substance.

Hey, I may as well use this editing thing to my advantage: I'd say a more pressing issue for many older people (and I know this was particularly the case with my 69 year old father) was sovereignty, rather than "them damn foreigners." Open borders was also a key issue for him, though admittedly more in terms of the stresses placed upon Britain in general than "heh that guy's a different colour. Ditch 'im." There is a reason both Gove and Farage were crying "We got our country back!" and not "Now we can get rid of all the negroes we want!"

I've no doubt that the BBC chose their interviewees and their place of interviewing quite carefully.

[NJW2000]

Let's just tell the people who will have to live the rest of their lives with this decision that their vote means less than some angsty teenager who's been fed propaganda from day one and who is most likely ill equipped to sort fact from said propaganda. As was previously mentioned, the old are the ones risking the most material possessions in this decision. It's not as if everyone over 30 (the age at which remain and leave became fairly 50/50 in the polls) suddenly decided to screw posterity, their children and their grandchildren. Selfishness, despite the heavy implications of those using age as an argument, was not a prime feature of their decision making process.

The presence of people sometimes defined as "wogs" in the UK, and the movement of more of such people from the EU into Britain, I think may have been a prime feature, at least for a deciding proportion of the vote.

Annoyance at this, though I am admitttedly a hormonal stew dependent on my parents for political opinions, I would tentatively call understandable.

[scriver]

Polls are always going to be based on samples. Obviously some young people voted out but the demographic as a whole was overwhelmingly in favour of In (mainly because we're the ones who will have to live with the consequences).

I think it is very shallow to think that older people voted as they did just out of selfishness or spite of the now rather than because they thought it is what their children and grandchildren will benefit the most from in the future.

Especially when you put it in such a way that the unspoken implications is that the younger people who voted the other way did so out of some great concern for everybody's best rather than their own selfish reasons.

I'm still waiting for bremainers to tell us the merits of the EU.

All the arguments I've seen focus on how fucked the UK is without the EU, rather than why the EU is great.  "You can't leave," "you'll be in the gutter without me," "you're nothing without me"

This is a classic spousal abuse situation.  Get outta there UK, I'm sure America has a couch you can chill on until you get things back together.

Personally I've always supported the EU, largely due to personal ideology but also due to pragmatism, I believe in an increasingly globalised world it's necessary for Europe to unite monetarily, economically and politically.
I believe that forming a Federal Europe will result in increased peace & prosperity, not only for Europe but the world as a whole, challenges that face governments today are increasingly international in scope (e.g. climate change, terrorism, economic inequality), and can be more efficiently dealt with when united.
Since the height of colonial empires in the 19th century/early 20th century Europe has increasingly been sidelined and overshadowed by at first America, currently Asia (with the rapid growth of huge economies such as in China), and in the near future Africa.

European populations are aging, putting strain on the society, and European populations are shrinking as a proportion of the global population.
European economies are struggling to maintain strong growth, and the unstable nature of the EU is doing nothing to help that.
European responses to crises such as in Crimea have often been slow and disjointed, Europe often depends too much on the US to maintain world order and promote liberalism and democracy.

In short, I see European integration as a necessary wake up call to what I see as a Europe slow to adjust to the modern world, in some cases willfully ignorant of the fact that this isn't 1912 anymore, Europe isn't the centre of the world. This isn't the time for haughty nationalism, we need to work together to make the world a better place.

My view is more pro-EU than 99% of people, completely unrepresentative of Britain, many would see it as extreme, probably overly idealistic, but it's the view I've always had, and it's why I believe the European project is a force for good and why we should have a hopeful vision for the future of Europe.


^{I know this isn't what you were asking when you said "I'm still waiting for bremainers to tell us the merits of the EU"}

The way you speak about it in the post gives me the impression that you view the EU more as a way to make the world stay at 1912 with Europe in the centre rather than as a way to accept that the world is changing.

[Starver]

The BBC were touring around Barnsley for some reason, I think they had a very high Leave % or something - maybe one of the highest.

Without explicitly checking, I know it was over ⅔rds Leave and I know some people there who are pretty adamant.  Your impressions of the headlined attitudes match the viewpoints I hear from them, but don't myself relate to.