Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

IF YOU COULD VOTE TO LEAVE OR REMAIN WITHIN THE EUROPEAN UNION AS A SUBJECT OF HRH (PBUH) WITH PERMANENT RESIDENCE IN THE UK OR CITIZENSHIP ABROAD, HOW WOULD YOU VOTE?

FUCK YES LET'S LEAVE GET HYPE YEY
Casual yes, let's leave and get independence done with
Meh, probably just scribble all over my vote ballot to spite tryhards
Casual no, let's remain and get integration done with
FUCK NO LET'S REMAIN GET CALM YEY

Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 ... 107

Author Topic: Breeki British Brexit thread  (Read 154444 times)

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2016, 08:01:53 pm »

As a pro-inner, I can agree that the £9m leaflet campaign was mind bogglingly retarded and honestly shouldn't have happened in both the interests of fairness and the fact that nobody is going to be fucking persuaded by them!
In all likelihood who wins will not be because of who persuaded more, but in who is most capable of mobilizing the most voters. This has been the overarching strategy of both Brexit campaigns and the Brexin campaign, and the Brexin campaign controls every single field of war bar shitposting. They have no legal limits, no lack of funds, the largest networks and the academic support. That they still resort to tricks like this just feels like kicking a dog when it's already down

The second part makes it *even more* of a waste. It's like attempting to bomb a manufacturing town and only getting your planes shot down into the sea so they're unsalvageable.
I'm more concerned with how they were able to outspend our entire campaign in one night without spending any of their pennies

I don't think I'd be any happier or sadder about the fairness of it all if their campaign had higher efficacy

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2016, 08:10:20 pm »

To be fair, in politics you don't generally go 'Ah, that'll do' you tend to go into a full on attempt at a curb stomp battle. I can only imagine that was their rationale, at least.
That's not being fair though, that's using a referendum to... Get what you want...

The master plan is reaching fruition

The struggle to not descend to this Machiavellian mentality is real

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2016, 08:26:34 pm »

...you and I must watch different politicians if you think they're not being Machiavellian most of the time.
Then again, at least we seem to have less Machiavellian party leaders in SOME parties this time.
For a while Machiavellian mindsets seem to have fallen out of favour, though I do draw distinction between standard politician calculative nature and outright "all evils on one night with stable prosperity to follow" Machiavellian stuff. We had a major dry spell of Machiavellian quality when we had Blair and Brown, who operated on what I assume is the irl representation of a 200 CHAR PC running off to start wars for the blood god in the former's case, and Brown who operated off of melting. I do wonder if the Tories held back on the Libdems (well, relatively speaking, they did screw them whenever such action wouldn't bolster labour) because they weren't confident in their own support or if this is a product of the unique powers they now have available to them. They can for example do all this without facing any opposition from their financial backers, the EU or even Labour, which vindicates my earlier fear that a weak labour would not be good for Britain in the long term.

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2016, 10:25:07 pm »

Personally, I assume all politicians became politicians for all the worst reasons, until proven otherwise.  There's not many such people even only on the margins of that status,  by my assessment.

And while I can spiel my NI# off the top of my head (around three decades since I had my little plastic card through the post, not that I know where the card currently is!), plus my driving licence number (and all car registrations, starting with the old X-reg, then the B-reg, the F-reg, the N-reg, R-reg, then 04 in the newest system) and even my YHA membership number (upgraded to Life Member in the mid '80s, IIRC) I know some late-registrants delayed due to not having such information at hand until pressed hard.

As someone who has been known to procrastinate*, when I can eventually get round to it, I have sympathy for people in a similar form of fugue...

(* - It is 4:15am and I'm not being an early riser...)

Also, "Britons have been asking for this referendum for 45 years."? -  a barely vocal minority has been chasing that,  IME.  Britons have also been asking for the return of the death penalty, the abolition of certain Income Tax brackets, the adding of such brackets and decided to support the name Boaty McBoatface. Some questions only become hot topics when raised publicly, most people (even the non-status-quoers) are more concerned with other issues, until the whole political mechanism is distracted.

And I pretty much don't care what the result of the referendum is, at this point. (I certainly couldn't tell you which box I'll actually tick, if either.) Regardless of the eventual answer, I'm convinced that merely asking the question is damaging to both UK and EU, already. I hope to be proven wrong, but there's no control result to reference against so..
Logged

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #184 on: June 12, 2016, 12:30:51 am »


Also, "Britons have been asking for this referendum for 45 years."? -  a barely vocal minority has been chasing that,  IME.  Britons have also been asking for the return of the death penalty, the abolition of certain Income Tax brackets, the adding of such brackets and decided to support the name Boaty McBoatface. Some questions only become hot topics when raised publicly, most people (even the non-status-quoers) are more concerned with other issues, until the whole political mechanism is distracted.


I find LW's complain all the morehilarious since there was such a referendum 41 years ago.
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #185 on: June 12, 2016, 03:31:29 pm »

Not that I disagree with you, LW, but you're giving the impression that the Tories fucking with election rules for their own benefit is a new thing. And that people are going to care.
A new thing? Nah, they already did so with Libdems and SNP and I did mention that earlier, but alas no one reads my posts before voicing their opinions lol
Heck, no one reads my posts

Didn't it come to light a couple of months back about them cheating their arses off by booking hotels for activists/party members under different names, etc, so that they could go over the legal limit and hugely outspend UKIP in certain key by-elections? The Tories didn't even offer up an explanation when they were caught, they just refused to comment and absolutely nothing came of it, because as long as it doesn't stop us getting drunk on Friday night and watching The X-Factor (or whatever the trash-du-jour is) on Saturday, we can comfortably ignore it.
Who the bloody hell knows, it is as you say, no one cares
Destroy your enemies and write the history books, this is the only thing to learn, no one cares either way

So all this talk about not 'disenfranchising the youth' (and I say this as someone in the apparently pro-Remain age-group) strikes me as quite funny; half the people voting don't give a shit what happens to this country. To them, this referendum is just an opportunity to virtue signal.
Anyway, I wonder if this story about four Syrian refugees gangraping a 14-year-old girl in a park will affect the results in Newcastle at all.
Grim
In all likelihood, results will be unaffected. How much it pisses rain will have more effect on voter turnout, right now it's monsoon bloody season

Personally, I assume all politicians became politicians for all the worst reasons, until proven otherwise.  There's not many such people even only on the margins of that status,  by my assessment.
I don't assume so, because I find the notion of people becoming a statesman just to be evil to be altogether ludicrous. The way I see it, politicians try to act and effect their morals upon their public to the best of their ability and see themselves as doing good, whether or not their public agrees or whether they are actually doing good. Or it could be that they are serving another interest to the best of their ability whilst not giving a shit about another one, like a politician who favours their voters above those who their campaign managers have identified as not in their voting profile. Someone who is just a selfish hedonist like a Berlusconi that uses their power and prestige to bunga bunga or climb in the world, they come around every now and then in corrupt democracies (by relative standards), I reckon if we could talk to all the leaders of past and present who fucked something up and hooked them up to a lie-detector test and asked them if they believed they were doing the right thing, they'd answer yes. Through good intention, misguidance or incompetence, a great deal can go wrong in politics. Then you look at finance, where people are willing to screw over as many for sole personal enrichment... Bleh.

I know some late-registrants delayed due to not having such information at hand until pressed hard.
As someone who has been known to procrastinate*, when I can eventually get round to it, I have sympathy for people in a similar form of fugue...
Yes, now what about my point?

Also, "Britons have been asking for this referendum for 45 years."? -  a barely vocal minority has been chasing that,  IME.
In your experience, not in mine - thus we are at a crossroads. Well, I agree with you and disagree with you, depending on where you go in the UK you'll find Brexit/in tends to be overwhelmingly in one direction with minorities within, and that's roughly split between the usual urban/country divide but it gets more detailed the closer you look

Britons have also been asking for the return of the death penalty, the abolition of certain Income Tax brackets, the adding of such brackets and decided to support the name Boaty McBoatface. Some questions only become hot topics when raised publicly, most people (even the non-status-quoers) are more concerned with other issues, until the whole political mechanism is distracted.
It quite confuses me why you'd hold fault in Britons for caring about the Laws that govern them, it is extremely dangerous when Britons stop using their voice to speak for themselves and grow apathetic - holding the very notion of speaking to be immoral.

And I pretty much don't care what the result of the referendum is, at this point. (I certainly couldn't tell you which box I'll actually tick, if either.) Regardless of the eventual answer, I'm convinced that merely asking the question is damaging to both UK and EU, already. I hope to be proven wrong, but there's no control result to reference against so..
Oh yes, most definitely, asking questions causes uncertainty, thus unnerving financial executives who lose faith in the currencies of Sterling and Euro, having consequences for the whole continent (and benefits for Murrica). For me, this is a most worthy price for keeping democratic oversight, letting people choose, even with all the caveats and complaints considered - I do not like states controlled by corporations much at all.

I find LW's complain all the morehilarious since there was such a referendum 41 years ago.
You laugh, but explain not why? Please elaborate on your opinion instead of contributing to useless noise.

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #186 on: June 12, 2016, 04:33:28 pm »

I don't assume so, because I find the notion of people becoming a statesman just to be evil to be altogether ludicrous.
I never said evil.

Quote
Yes, now what about my point?
I've scrolled back, but I'm not sure which particular point you think I wasn't answering.

Quote
It quite confuses me why you'd hold fault in Britons for caring about the Laws that govern them, it is extremely dangerous when Britons stop using their voice to speak for themselves and grow apathetic - holding the very notion of speaking to be immoral.
Wrong message. I was saying as how the nation has always had many minor issues to argue about. The In/Out referendum is an artificially inflated issue (not intentionally, but even with certain political futures on the line, it's actually a fortuitous distraction for some noted people) when many other issues had at least as many people originally wanting such a national discussion of import. It is only because it is a Referendum that it is dominating public discussion.  If the referendum had been about renationalising the steel industry (fat chance, in both regards, but it's a quick example) we'd have been arguing over who was lying about import/export figures, not EU contribution/rebate ones.

Quote
Oh yes, most definitely, asking questions causes uncertainty, thus unnerving financial executives who lose faith in the currencies of Sterling and Euro, having consequences for the whole continent (and benefits for Murrica). For me, this is a most worthy price for keeping democratic oversight, letting people choose, even with all the caveats and complaints considered - I do not like states controlled by corporations much at all.
That (even if as Illuminatingly true as you put it) is a different question to answer.  But I thought it was Brussels who was supposed to be controlling Britain.  I must apologise for not keeping up with your latest knee-jerking.
Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #187 on: June 12, 2016, 07:35:14 pm »

I never said evil.
Yeah, I said evil. Someone who gravitates to power for the worst of reasons is amoral at best, evil at worst. Or perhaps an ignorant savant.

I've scrolled back, but I'm not sure which particular point you think I wasn't answering.
You focused on defending the profile of the late voters and not the registration date change/campaign blitz
Which is pretty odd

Wrong message. I was saying as how the nation has always had many minor issues to argue about. The In/Out referendum is an artificially inflated issue (not intentionally, but even with certain political futures on the line, it's actually a fortuitous distraction for some noted people) when many other issues had at least as many people originally wanting such a national discussion of import. It is only because it is a Referendum that it is dominating public discussion.  If the referendum had been about renationalising the steel industry (fat chance, in both regards, but it's a quick example) we'd have been arguing over who was lying about import/export figures, not EU contribution/rebate ones.
the most important issue the UK public has ever voted on
Starver I think you're the only person alive who thinks this is a minor issue
It's a rather unique mindset, can you elaborate why you believe so please? I've only heard this from a finance guy whose sole focus is making the money and his mindset was rather easy to understand: If it interrupts money making, it's not worth it. You don't seem pecuniary in nature

That (even if as Illuminatingly true as you put it) is a different question to answer.  But I thought it was Brussels who was supposed to be controlling Britain.  I must apologise for not keeping up with your latest knee-jerking.
The concept you are looking for is called a metonym. Consider this - when one refers to the Movie industry, it is "Hollywood," this is in spite of most modern films being made in Louisiana, with great rivals in England. This is because historically Hollywood was the seat of the world's foremost film industry, becoming interchangeable with the Hollywood industry despite such industry spreading throughout the world.
Consider again, when one refers to the Russian state apparatus as the Kremlin. No one is saying that Russia is ruled by a series fortified Russian citadels standing within Moscow, they are referring to the Russian state apparatus. This is because the Moscow Citadels historically housed the seat of the Russian state apparatus, even though such institutions have moved throughout all of Russia.
Consider now - what are people referring to when they say Brussels?

Glad to help!

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #188 on: June 13, 2016, 01:03:22 am »

You focused on defending the profile of the late voters and not the registration date change/campaign blitz
As I was reading "well, if they couldn't be bothered to register until the last minute then they don't deserve to be able to vote" into your own words, I addresssed rhat issue.  You also seem to be imagining that the (re)enfranchisement of people who otherwise missed the opportunity whilst not doing anything wrong themselves is the equivalent of stuffing voting boxes with votes from the residents of the local cemetary.

If this last minute action has then to be looked at in the event of a close Remain victory, imagine if it had not been done and it had been a close Leave victory. Just as valid grounds for a legal challenge by those who ultimately think they most lost out (should they even need it). And better to make things right than to go the way of a 'hanging chads' debacle.

As the current rules require (from what I remember) 11 days to deal with validated registrations and 5 days prior to that to allow for objections to any registration, it does it indeed mean the extension cut it finer than the statutory limit, but given the padding and buffering time integrated into the process, nothing that a little overtime can't handle.


Quote
Starver I think you're the only person alive who thinks this is a minor issue
Minor was perhaps not the right word, but the point you missed was that it's just one issue amongst many.

Quote
It's a rather unique mindset, can you elaborate why you believe so please? I've only heard this from a finance guy whose sole focus is making the money and his mindset was rather easy to understand: If it interrupts money making, it's not worth it. You don't seem pecuniary in nature
I don't think I ever boiled it down to just money, that's just one of the things involved, but not the only one. I believe you're taking my recent "damaging to the UK and EU" as meaning financially when I equally (if not more) mean reputation, worldwide political clout, etc. If Europe (and UK) is getting clobbered by China/US/Russia/etc right now, by whatever measure, a visibly weakened EU and the exosed hermit crab in transition that is the UK are both going to have difficulties.  But, yes, there's been strong information that the UK's triple-A credit rating could be downgraded upon Brexit.  Or stated intention to Brexit.

I honestly don't know how it will go. With the right leadership (none of which can I see in the offing) perhaps we can' rebuild the Empire' on the back of Brexit.  Not in any traditional sense.  Colonialism is dead, unless new beaches can be found that yet remain undiscovered (save for by the natives, who don't count) to plant flags on. A 'new Industrial Revolution' seems unlikely, in the current circumstances, with both the Colonies and the Orient doing moat new things on grander scales than ourselves. Militarily, we're not likely to be able (or be wanted to!) dominate any theatre not already under our own remit (and, depending on your desired metric, US/China/etc probably outguns us).

The perfect storm that made Great Britain great, originally, just doesn't seem to be blowing in the same direction any more. So much so that having cast off from Europe the (already on-the-cusp, not that long ago!) fragmentation of Great Britain is even on the cards. It may not happen if the EU shatters, first, but then it's anybody's guess what happens. Certainly well beyond my pay-grade.

Quote
The concept you are looking for is called a metonym.
I know that word. I even know why Brussels (interesting, if irrelevant) but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said or was replying to. Looks like I am failing to understand you a lot.
Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #189 on: June 13, 2016, 01:01:03 pm »

As I was reading "well, if they couldn't be bothered to register until the last minute then they don't deserve to be able to vote" into your own words, I addresssed rhat issue. You also seem to be imagining that the (re)enfranchisement of people who otherwise missed the opportunity whilst not doing anything wrong themselves is the equivalent of stuffing voting boxes with votes from the residents of the local cemetary.
I didn't make that argument
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bolded is the question
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bolded is the argument

If this last minute action has then to be looked at in the event of a close Remain victory, imagine if it had not been done and it had been a close Leave victory. Just as valid grounds for a legal challenge by those who ultimately think they most lost out (should they even need it). And better to make things right than to go the way of a 'hanging chads' debacle.
The grounds are not just as valid, given that what was illegal had to be made legal whilst doing it, two hours with less people is not the same as two days with more amidst a unipolar media blitz. The two are comparable, but in your hypothetical there is no legal ground to stand on, just as Zac Goldsmith was fucked when technical difficulties wiped out his safe seats and guaranteed Sadiq Khan victory

Minor was perhaps not the right word, but the point you missed was that it's just one issue amongst many.
No point was missed Starver, because you didn't make that point. Was not just "perhaps", it was the entirely wrong phrase - please, for the sake of clarity, actually try to describe what you believe in in terms of what you actually believe in :P
No one is claiming Brexit is the only issue in the world. The point of a major issue is that it is of higher significance than say, soap tariffs. No one will say soap tariffs are to be ignored without peril, as they are significant. But at the same time no one is going to say soap tariffs matter more than the fundamental destiny of the state, sovereignty, country and the first supranational state. Reread what Dorsidorf said - the most important issue the UK public has ever voted on, Dorsidorf did nto say it is the only issue the UK public has ever voted on.

I don't think I ever boiled it down to just money, that's just one of the things involved, but not the only one. I believe you're taking my recent "damaging to the UK and EU" as meaning financially when I equally (if not more) mean reputation, worldwide political clout, etc. If Europe (and UK) is getting clobbered by China/US/Russia/etc right now, by whatever measure, a visibly weakened EU and the exosed hermit crab in transition that is the UK are both going to have difficulties.  But, yes, there's been strong information that the UK's triple-A credit rating could be downgraded upon Brexit.  Or stated intention to Brexit.
1. No, no, I'm not taking your notion of damage to merely be financial - which is why I reckoned you weren't pecuniary in nature :P Thanks greatly for elaborating
2. Reputation is an idle and most false imposition, oft got without merit and lost without deserving. Surrendering our own ability to conduct our own negotiations, the EU asking for our seat on the Security Council, the EU moving towards a common foreign policy? I'm willing to sacrifice private banks' ability to access European markets without obeying their local regulations if it means actually maintaining worldwide political influence. Why do we want to lose all these diplomatic relations lol
Since the Treaty of Lisbon the Commission's gained a true diplomatic corps and foreign office and already the foreign offices of the other Yuros besides the big three are useless vestigial things - ambassadors go to the big three if they want something done in Sweden ;D
The question I then think of is how long that situation will last. I'd have to see political reform in the EU tend towards national democracy and not further integration, but there's not been a single EU Pres. who's not said integration is the name of the game. Bit out of luck then
I don't know where you got the idea from that we're being clobbered by the USA, China or Russia. Europe is threatened by the USA and China and scared of Russia but we're not the protectionists of Europe, we're the lolberal merchants of the British Isles. Chinese value is welcome, American value very very welcome, Russian value warily accepted and British troops garrisoned in Poland. I think it would be most amusing to see European workers have the TTIP brought to them by the EU, but I'd much prefer British free trade deals that actually promote free trade. And I really want to stop this shit. It's not right for a larger business to be able to wipe out smaller competitors merely by putting up regulatory barriers through their m8s :P

I honestly don't know how it will go. With the right leadership (none of which can I see in the offing) perhaps we can' rebuild the Empire' on the back of Brexit.  Not in any traditional sense.  Colonialism is dead, unless new beaches can be found that yet remain undiscovered (save for by the natives, who don't count) to plant flags on. A 'new Industrial Revolution' seems unlikely, in the current circumstances, with both the Colonies and the Orient doing moat new things on grander scales than ourselves. Militarily, we're not likely to be able (or be wanted to!) dominate any theatre not already under our own remit (and, depending on your desired metric, US/China/etc probably outguns us).
Jesus fucking Christ m8, it's the current year not the 19th century
I don't know about you, but I really don't need world domination to be content in life
Bloody hell, I don't even want to dominate Europe, I'd much rather let the Germans and French do that

Our colonies were founded on the principle that raiding Spanish galleons wasn't as profitable as taking over / establishing sugar plantations, but now we can just buy sugar without using slave labour and global Empire and all that. There's no need. Protecting textiles, oh we just buy those now. Tea? No more opium wars, we just buy that now. Raw materials? Free trade, yada yada yada. Naval coal depots? For nuclear warships, we're not all that concerned xD
Venturing outside the theatres already under our remit is a desirable idea, that's a whole lot of cost to gain control over things we already have, likely to result in many people dead for no reason. I think this is undesirable ;D
My guess is the next two big things will be massive commercial industrial automation and space exploitation and as always, services. I don't think innovation is going to be a big issue for as long as we stop our youth thinking themselves incapable or useless and our intelligent shakers don't become useless neets, fortunately we have avoided the latter case of Japan but we're still in much peril in the former. It is astounding to me how any young Briton thinks the EU commands trade through the pen, rather than the toil of British merchants making British trade ;D
It is altogether troubling if British workers continue to lose what was once one of the world's greatest work ethics. Hopefully that's just me being overly cautious, but of course I don't like taking chances when the stakes are this high.

The perfect storm that made Great Britain great, originally, just doesn't seem to be blowing in the same direction any more. So much so that having cast off from Europe the (already on-the-cusp, not that long ago!) fragmentation of Great Britain is even on the cards. It may not happen if the EU shatters, first, but then it's anybody's guess what happens. Certainly well beyond my pay-grade.
Don't do the same thing expecting the same results when the environment has changed considerably in the last 200 years, thus I support continual support for innovation (what an odd phrase, that). We have the world's largest financial sector so we're doing plenty in that regard, but a rather valid criticism I find is that the benefits for such finances do not always do much for ordinary Britons. We're world-leading in loads of shit like pharmacy and medicine, creative industries, aerospace, one thing I do find particularly odd though is we have a tendency of inventing great things and then letting our neighbours use them whilst trying to rake patent money off them. Seems like if British kids believed in themselves we could get a lot more done xD
And fuck the European Patent Office, that shit is fucked
They're a minor issue, the EU is a bigger one for the time being

I must also admit, the armchair general stuff is especially fascinating to me. Especially when it comes to why we even bother to maintain a navy most bleu :]

I know that word. I even know why Brussels (interesting, if irrelevant) but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said or was replying to. Looks like I am failing to understand you a lot.
There is indeed a great deal of confusion then! I thought you believed my criticisms were solely limited to the institutions headquartered in Brussels, given that you found it jarring when I talked of corporations

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #190 on: June 13, 2016, 04:13:24 pm »

LW, I know I'm often not succinct myself, but honestly I try but fail to find the common point of contention, even.  The effort needed to cut down your blast of waffle to the small actually-relevant points is beyond me, right now, even though I know waffle. So let's try it freehand....

Why does it matter that people were slow to sign-up?   They were entitled to and they intended to and they tried to.   If they were not entitled, if they were not bothered and/or if they didn't bother then being forced to register would maybe have been an issue.  It definitely would if (somehow, psychically) only those of one persuasion were forcibly recruited.

But we've looked at that, and you're as close to invoking lizard-people as anyone I've seen so who cares whether Whippingdale said something, because he's entitled to say things.

What next..? Ah yes, getting this referendum result right is important, now that it is happening, but I still contend that there were many more questions that could have been asked and never were, and this one probably didn't even rate as the top question for the overwhelming majority of the population.  A largely unconsidered question becomes important because a throwaway promise (intended to be!) half-heartedly added to a set of election pledges becomes the fulcrum of a internal party squabble.

I think that, for some reason, you think that a TTIP that you consider isn't fair to a block as large as Europe would be bested by a fairer negotiation by a smaller block.  That's my take-home of the next bit of rant. I disagree.

And then you seem to U-turn over the whole point about the Better Outside thing, because you berate me for suggesting that it's possible to "Make Britain Great Again" when I was the one telling you that it wasn't possible.  Furthermore, how do you actually equate my finding it "jarring" that you talk of corporations with the Brussels metonym thing...


External adjudication please: someone please join up what are two obviously mutually disconnected misunderstandings with realistic connectionsvthat we can both understand. I know we can't persuade each other to swap (me to ship the moorings and float 75% of the British Isles off past Ireland into the North Atlantic, and perhaps then swing southwards a bit, but hopefully not into Tropical Storm waters; LW to acknowledge that bad things can now happen, and become an undecided-voter like I currently am, without invoking some form of secretive world government) and I can only imagine what a turn off this thread is becoming to anyone else still reading it.
Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #191 on: June 13, 2016, 04:59:49 pm »

Why does it matter that people were slow to sign-up?   They were entitled to and they intended to and they tried to.   If they were not entitled, if they were not bothered and/or if they didn't bother then being forced to register would maybe have been an issue.  It definitely would if (somehow, psychically) only those of one persuasion were forcibly recruited.
Oioi, look at my posts
You're missing the bolded part, focusing on something I find distasteful but minor

But we've looked at that, and you're as close to invoking lizard-people as anyone I've seen so who cares whether Whippingdale said something, because he's entitled to say things.
Where the hell are you getting Lizard people from? Starver, can you not start going on about conspiracy theories please, and if you are, please bring evidence. There seems to be great confusion here
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bolded is the question
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bolded is the argument
You are pursuing the question, avoiding the argument. I'm sure it's not intentional but there's little point in barking down an imagined road populated by lizard people and tinfoil when the argument sits before you
P.s. "Whippingdale" is the secretary for Culture, Media and Sport, just a nicer way of saying Beeb and Ch4 media blitz

What next..? Ah yes, getting this referendum result right is important, now that it is happening, but I still contend that there were many more questions that could have been asked and never were, and this one probably didn't even rate as the top question for the overwhelming majority of the population.
Such as...? That is a massive claim and yet you're not putting any meat on the table

I think that, for some reason, you think that a TTIP that you consider isn't fair to a block as large as Europe would be bested by a fairer negotiation by a smaller block.  That's my take-home of the next bit of rant. I disagree.
Where did I not say it was fair? I said it'd be hilarious to see it pass through and see how Europeans handle competing with Americans after so much protectionism. I think we must be operating under two different Englishes because you seem to be taking home a lot of things I'm not saying for some reason, but I'm happy to go over anywhere where you're uncertain of what I mean
P.s. the EU is not being forced into the TTIP, they're fighting to push it against much opposition from normal Europeans, largest protest Germany's made was against it - surprised me to heck :]
They need to learn the lesson in how it is useless to give your leverage to someone else just so they can more powerfully represent their own interests over yours. Use your own resources to handle your affairs, and you will be able to better represent yourself quite nicely. The USA is also a poor example if you wish to discourage me, as the USA and UK have unparalleled cooperation amongst the world and Anglosphere, but that's besides the point.

And then you seem to U-turn over the whole point about the Better Outside thing, because you berate me for suggesting that it's possible to "Make Britain Great Again" when I was the one telling you that it wasn't possible.
Where are you quoting "Make Britain Great Again" from? I never said that, of course I'm going to berate you for arguing against something no one said lol
I don't know how you manage to equate Brexit with a massive world conquest ambition on any level, it's just too funny
Please stick to what people say

Furthermore, how do you actually equate my finding it "jarring" that you talk of corporations with the Brussels metonym thing...
Equate your finding with what? I'm convinced we're not using the same English, but I'm sure with enough patience we can find out what we're telling each other. In regards to the Brussels metonym, I had interpreted you finding talking of Corporations AND Brussels at the same time to be a discussion of two incongruous, exclusive things, so I thought the most likely misunderstanding was wherever someone used Brussels you thought of either the city of the institutions based in Brussels. I do also say someone, as the only time I've used the word Brussels was in the thread title, so I'm also not particularly sure where you got the focus on Brussels from if not from the EU jokes thread or something, but to that I don't pay much heed, it's faster to move on once misunderstandings are cleared. Can you clearer define your thought processes and criticism in kind?

External adjudication please: someone please join up what are two obviously mutually disconnected misunderstandings with realistic connectionsvthat we can both understand. I know we can't persuade each other to swap (me to ship the moorings and float 75% of the British Isles off past Ireland into the North Atlantic, and perhaps then swing southwards a bit, but hopefully not into Tropical Storm waters; LW to acknowledge that bad things can now happen, and become an undecided-voter like I currently am, without invoking some form of secretive world government) and I can only imagine what a turn off this thread is becoming to anyone else still reading it.
If you wanted me to acknowledge that bad things can happen, I should have you know I have two mottos in life; the first is that you either laugh or you cry, the second is that it's never too late for damage control. The EU is to me short term safety, an anchor in a changing world that is being left behind - its people once safe in complacency and profit, now paying the price for apathy and lethargy. No nation will ever survive its people taking success for granted, and as one of the most successful nations in the world we are one of the nations most at risk of such folly. That in spite of low gas prices and quantitative easing the European economies have such sluggish growth, I am certain our long term future lies abroad, not in the comfort of stagnancy.

Have this from the European Institute
The introduction of the euro was supposed to usher in a period of improved economic performance across Europe. By fixing exchange rates the single currency would make it impossible to engage in competitive devaluations, which in turn would open the way for more trade integration. This would increase competition and hence productivity growth, raising economic growth and living standards. This, in turn, would strengthen member-states’ public finances, and with it the sustainability of welfare states or Europe’s ‘social-market’ economies. The euro would challenge the dollar as an international reserve currency, and boost Europe’s standing in the world. Politically, the euro would bring EU member-states together, fostering a closer sense of unity and common identity. For some, this would be the first step on the road to full political union.
Things have not turned out quite this way. Since the onset of the financial crisis in 2007-08, Europe has suffered an unprecedented
loss of economic activity, big (in some cases dramatic) increases in public debt in most countries and a crisis of its currency union. The EU economy is still considerably smaller than in 2007, the debt positions of many economies continue to worsen, and the eurozone has at times appeared close to collapse. Productivity growth has stalled, and living standards are declining, in some cases precipitously. The gradual convergence of living standards with the US in the run-up to the introduction of the euro has now gone into reverse, and welfare states
are under pressure like never before. Relations between member-states, moreover, are perhaps more strained than at any point since the birth of the EU, and Europe’s standing in the world has declined sharply.

Our prosperity has been ensured through every time we secured opt outs from the EU's ambitions, so it is in my hopes that the majority of Britons and Commonwealth Citizens have the confidence in their own labour to permanently safeguard us from the folly of old men running Europe into the ground. Your fears are a loss of financial security, prestige and greatness - all things that the EU has delivered. I would easily take the uncertainty of national democracy over the guarantee of failure were it ever within my choice to take it.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #192 on: June 13, 2016, 05:08:06 pm »

Quote
Yet as milestones go, Europe’s return to precrisis levels of economic activity came with so many qualifiers that any celebration seemed premature, at best, and at worst like a mockery for the tens of millions of ordinary Europeans who have far from recovered. New unemployment data on Friday showed that the eurozone jobless rate, while edging down slightly, remained above 10 percent — more than twice the level in the United States.

“It’s almost a lost decade,” said Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel laureate economist and a professor at Columbia University. “It’s a remarkable testimony to the economic failure of the euro and the eurozone.”

The strongest economies in the eurozone — major exporters like Germany and the Netherlands — have recovered more handily. But in the worst-hit countries — Cyprus, Greece, Ireland and Italy — ordinary people continue to grapple with the consequences of deep job losses and wage cuts, which have slashed incomes.
Heh, and the economists of yesteryear said we'd go bust if we didn't join the Eurozone
*EDIT
Quote
“Europe is just sort of hanging on,” said Kenneth Rogoff, a former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund who is a professor at Harvard. “It’s very much like Japan, where Japan chose not to grab the bulls by the horns. It’s still a very rich country. It’s stable, but it’s in decline.”

Even “hanging on” may amount to an aspiration. The terrorist attacks in Paris and Brussels have left Europe on knife’s edge, with policy makers and investors cognizant that people with lethal intentions are no doubt plotting more. Refugees and migrants continue to stream toward the Continent, propelled by terrible conflicts in Libya, Syria and elsewhere. This has thrown another fraught and complex problem at European governments that have shown little mastery of coordinated action.
Best of luck to Berlin
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 05:10:46 pm by Loud Whispers »
Logged

Wolfhunter107

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #193 on: June 13, 2016, 06:28:02 pm »

So, in other words, a conspiracy theory born on the "logic" of Remain=good and Leave=evil. Got it.
Logged
Just ask yourself: What would a mobster do?
So we butcher them and build a 4chan tallow soap tower as a monument to our greatness?

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: British Brexit Thread: Eyes on the prize, Yog-Merkel in the skies
« Reply #194 on: June 13, 2016, 09:11:49 pm »

Covenant: Voting wasn't extended, allowing people who weren't bothered to now be swayed by an apprently biased source (note that the BBC isn't under control of the government yet, although that's the way the government review is taking it...) in an irrevocably different direction over that period, registration was extended.  The voting has yet to happen, as I'm sure you're aware.

If one side thinks that the one or two weeks betwixt the final closing of registration and the actual vote (a gap implemented for administration of the thing, not a time in which campaign messages cannot be broadcast) gives no opportunity to counter "Tim's" arguments, then they must not have confidence in their ability to construct or sustain their material arguments.

Even if they shot their budget, which is bad planning with Voting Day clearly marked in everybody's diaries, they can still find ways to shove someone in front of the media and keep their conversations in the news.

And that stupid 'from the government' thing was a waste of money. Easily countered, because it was published far too early in the cycle to avoid any half-decent attempt at counter-arguments, and evoked such counter-effective reactions (just like the £350m 'fact' has persuaded me that Leave has no idea how to construct a viable headline argument) from those who disliked either the arguments, the cost or the basic hype.

So I don't see how Leave has been disadvantaged. Except by having Farage mouthing off, but his being secretly a Remain mole would be a very long-term strategy to have employed. ;)

(I dislike Cameron.  I like Boris, but only as a TV personality.  Osbourne is not human.  Gove is low in my estimation.  Just to concentrate on the Tory main figures, given that it's basically their contest.)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 09:18:38 pm by Starver »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 ... 107