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[Teneb]

Meanwhile, the Bolivarian National Militia in Venezuela, how many people are they accused of killing? If they were accused of any deaths or human rights abuses, you can be sure they would have been mentioned in the article you linked, Teneb.

I never said the militia killed anyone, just that they're getting armed by the government. Hell, the article doesn't say it either. It does mention 6 deaths, but says nothing about who killed them.

[Reelya]

Most likely the 6 deaths can't actually be attributed to government forces then, or they would have mentioned that.

I was more commenting on the article itself. Colombia's Santos has a pretty dark record there, considering what was done when he was in charge of the army, and the sheer number of illegal paras that operated as part of their "democratic security" policy.

This article is interesting, but it is the pro-venezuela side.
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/What-Everybody-Needs-to-Know-About-Venezuela-Protester-Deaths-20170413-0030.html

Here's a private media version:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eluniversal.com%2Fnoticias%2Fsucesos%2Ffamiliares-descartan-vinculacion-entre-gases-muerte-octogenaria_648027&edit-text=&act=url

An old lady died at home while waiting for an ambulance, but they couldn't get through because of the protests in the city. The opposition then tried to claim she died from a government gas attack. She's literally one of the "6 dead" counted by the opposition. Even her family are calling bullshit on the politicization of her death.

Principal, a 13-year-old resident of the Ali Primera Socialist City, was shot and killed by opposition protesters after they toppled the main gate of the commune. The city was established by the Bolivarian Revolution in 2014 for low-income citizens.

13 year old kid murdered by opposition activists when they attacked a left-wing commune. Also counted as a protest death that Maduro is responsible for.

The other counted deaths are also questionable as to whether they are even related to the protests. One cop murdered some random, then claimed he was a protestor, but he wasn't even in the protests. The cop was then arrested and charged with murder over that. Which is definitely not the sort of thing that happens when you've ordered the cops to use suppressive force against demostrators. Western governments almost always go out of their way to absolved police of deaths they caused.

So the opposition has found a bunch of deaths with some sort of vague connection to the protests, then they remove the context and cite them as protest deaths. It's this sort of thing that's the reason I'm highly skeptical of anything the opposition in Veneuzuela actually says. Almost every detail of everything they ever say, that can be checked, turns out to be 99% bullshit.

[Sheb]

I mean, I don't dispute your general point that Colombia is way more militarized than Venezuela, but jeez. Between your link that claims that Colombia spends 25M of GDP on defense, and that stuff of adding deads, injured and displaced together to get a huge-ass number of "victims"...

I mean, you're right, but your source are so annoying parts of me want to oppose you anyway.

[Reelya]

I never said colombia spends 25% of GDP on arms, I said 25% of the budget.

The GDP is not the same thing as the federal budget, they are fairly distinct concepts.

And it is fairly normal to count refugees as victims when talking about e.g. Syria. The Huffington post article was about deaths and internally-displaced refugees. This was the first google link for "Syria Crisis"
https://www.mercycorps.org/articles/iraq-jordan-lebanon-syria-turkey/quick-facts-what-you-need-know-about-syria-crisis

Syria’s civil war has created the worst humanitarian crisis of our time. Half the country’s pre-war population — more than 11 million people — have been killed or forced to flee their homes.

They state it as "11 million people have been killed ... or forced to flee their home". That could be called misleading, since it implies "killed" is the expected state for most of the 11 million (almost all of the 11 million were not actually killed), but I don't think you're going to get much support for dissecting that claim, and calling it a misleading article about Syria.

To lump in refugees as victims is the normal way that reporting on these sorts of humanitarian crises gets written. So it's apples and apples. We can directly compare Santos' time running the Colombian army to the Syria crisis: about 1/3rd of a "Syria".

[redwallzyl]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/19/524708302/venezuela-erupts-in-mother-of-all-protests-as-anti-maduro-sentiment-seethes

that's a hell of a protest.

[TempAcc]

The protest got the support of venezuelans in br, as well, there were organized anti-maduro protests in Porto Alegre and other places.

[Sheb]

You said budget. Your link said GDP.

Each year, including pensions and other benefits to military personnel, the Colombian government spends as much as 25% of it's GDP on defense. But this already huge figure only accounts for the immediate costs of the continuation of the war system and does not tell us much about the hidden and more important longer-term effects of the war on the country’s economic and political development.

[Reelya]

Oops sorry that was my misreading then. But boiling into the article they justify that:

The Colombian government spends about 1.5% of its GDP on military salaries. If you combine pensions and other benefits to the armed forces these costs would account for 15%-25% of the Colombian GDP.

I read that as budget because I was only considering direct spending. When in fact, this article is talking about total government payments to people for rendering military service. Rather than weakening my point about how militarized Colombia is, you nicely pointed out that it's a lot worse than I was claiming.

The 15% was based on detailed analysis done in the 1990s, and since then the proportion of GDP focused on the military has expanded massively (i.e it's expanded faster than GDP has), as has the sheer number of military personnel. Thus they estimate that the current proportion of GDP allocated for all payments and benefits related to military service has grown higher than the 15% of before, to somewhere close to 25% of the total GDP. Even if you only credit the original 15% GDP spent on military pensions, mil expenditure by itself has risen to around 6% GDP, so that would give you at least 21% of GDP spent on military personnel.

In GDP terms it would be equivalent to the Veteran's Affairs bureau in the USA having a budget of around $3 trillion dollars, just for paying out people's entitlements for military service.

I think counting all the costs that accrue as a result of the military does in fact sound like a reasonable way of estimating how "militarized" a nation is. As would jobs making e.g. guns and bombs. They might not be "in the military" but if your job involves nothing but producing weapons, you're part of the militarized economy.

[Sheb]

Apparently a GM factory was seized by the Venezuelan government. I've not heard of a US gov repsonse yet.

I read that as budget because I was only considering direct spending. When in fact, this article is talking about total government payments to people for rendering military service. Rather than weakening my point about how militarized Colombia is, you nicely pointed out that it's a lot worse than I was claiming.

The 15% was based on detailed analysis done in the 1990s, and since then the proportion of GDP focused on the military has expanded massively (i.e it's expanded faster than GDP has), as has the sheer number of military personnel. Thus they estimate that the current proportion of GDP allocated for all payments and benefits related to military service has grown higher than the 15% of before, to somewhere close to 25% of the total GDP. Even if you only credit the original 15% GDP spent on military pensions, mil expenditure by itself has risen to around 6% GDP, so that would give you at least 21% of GDP spent on military personnel.

No, your link just sucks. They mix pension liabilities for military stuff (15 billions USD in 1996) which are a one-off liability with yearly spending. It's like mixing debt and deficit.

Again, I don't really disagree with your point that Colombia is more militarized that Venezuela, it's just some of the links you used which makes me cringe.

[Helgoland]

Trump probably wanted it to move back to the states anyway, so he should be cool with it.

[martinuzz]

Damn. A Brasilian gang of about 80 heavily armed men used brutal force and military tactics to rob a money transfer depot in Paraguay, in the border town of Ciudad del Este.

Part of the gang assaulted the depot with heavy machineguns and grenades, using explosives to blow out the front portal, and to blow open the vault, while other gang members assaulted a police station to create a diversion.

After 3 hours of non stop battle, the assailants fled using the depot's armoured trucks, with an unknown amount of money (rumors are they got away with money worth 36 million euros).
They covered their retreat by covering the streets with thousands of caltrops, and leaving a wake of burning cars. They also deployed snipers to cover their retreat.

Eventually they made it to lake Itapui, which they crossed to Brasil in two boats, while engaged in a firefight with pursuing coast guard. 12 Assailants were intercepted by the police before reaching the lake, but managed to get away after a heavy firefight.
The boats used in the escape were later found, filled with AK47s, grenades, flak vests, explosives and munitions.

Three of the assailants, and one police officer were killed in the attack.

Geesh. That's not a robbery, that's a full-on military assault. Insane.

[martinuzz]

Venezuala has decided to cancel their membership of OAS (Organisation of American States), of which it has been a member for over 65 years.
Minister of foreign affairs Rodriguez announced that president Maduro has demanded this, after 17 member states had called for an emergency meeting to express their concerns about the situation in Venezuala.

According to Rodriguez, the decision is irrevokable, and nescessary to protect the dignity of the Venezuelan people.

Meanwhile, more people have been getting killed in the protests, and in prison riots in Venezuala.

[Sergarr]

Maduro has decided to do... something. Apparently he's created something called "constituent assembly" and re-delegated all legislative powers to it.

[feelotraveller]

That's an interesting spin on it!

As far as I can understand (google translation of the article you posted) Maduro is (re)calling the National Contituent Assembly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Constituent_Assembly_of_Venezuela the elected body that oversees constitutional reform in Venezuela.  The political ramifications of this need proper analysis but the relevant articles of the constitution (google translation from above article, so apologies if corrections are needed...) are:

Article 347: " The people of Venezuela are the depositary of the original constituent power. In exercise of this power, it may convene a National Constituent Assembly with the purpose of transforming the State, creating a new legal order and drafting a new Constitution."

Article 348: "The initiative of convening the National Constituent Assembly may be taken by the President of the Republic in the Council of Ministers, the National Assembly, by agreement of two-thirds of its members, the Municipal Councils in the chapter, through the Vote of two thirds of them, or fifteen percent of registered voters and registered voters in the Civil and Electoral Registry.

Article 349: " The President of the Republic can not object to the new Constitution." The constituted powers can not in any way impede the decisions of the National Constituent Assembly. Once the new Constitution has been promulgated, it will be published in the Official Gazette of The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela or in the Gazette of the National Constituent Assembly ".

On the surface this seems like a proper exercise of democratic power to deal with constitutional problems (visa-a-vis the deadlock between the "corrupt" -note scarequotes- Opposition and the Supreme Court), and one which if it turns out contrary to his hopes Maduro will be in no position to refuse.  Perhaps a good way to break an increasingly violent loggerhead? 

p.s. Presuming I've got it all wrong (...possible) how is this the actions of a dictator hellbent on absolute power? [Quick edit: not that you meant this, did you Sergarr?]

[Reelya]

Hmm yeah, also the BBC is hardly friendly with Maduro, and if you read their article on the matter, the opposition there actually come off as a bunch of ranting loonies. They're all about hyperbole and hysteria dialed up to 11 no matter what the other guys say or do:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39775092