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Author Topic: Latin American Politics: Moralism  (Read 108090 times)

scriver

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2016, 12:54:16 am »

This is a formal request to include Quebec in the Latinomerican sphere. It is the only right thing!
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Max™

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2016, 01:23:40 am »

Quebec is just that piece of the Ameripol hat that tries to slip away and smoke weed with Europol behind our ear.
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Teneb

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2016, 08:42:36 am »

This is a formal request to include Quebec in the Latinomerican sphere. It is the only right thing!
Quebec can be an honorary member if it promises to behave and not sneak out at night with that boy Trump from next door.
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Kot

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2016, 08:50:53 am »

I kinda think of Castro as a decent Tropico player - stuff he does is at best questionable, but most of people live relatively good lifes.
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2016, 08:29:53 am »

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-01/colombian-congress-passes-peace-deal-with-farc/8083778

Well the current Colombian government finally signed a peace deal with FARC. The opposition, headed by previous virtual dictator President Uribe (2002-2010) walked out in disgust. That might make more sense when you start to realize just how much corrupt murderous shit Uribe is linked to, and how the civil war is the perfect cover to get away with all that shit. Uribe makes Duterte look like Ghandi in comparison. You just didn't hear about him because he was a huge American-flag-waver for Bush's War on Terror.

Just be aware that the below stuff is only the tip of the iceberg that I was able to google really quickly.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 09:03:51 am by Reelya »
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Sergius

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2016, 07:56:45 pm »

PTW, as I live in Latin America and I guess I should be informed about stuff about Latin America, or something.

Also, heads up, one of the 5 posts following this one, I will find extremely offensive. Which one, will be decided at random.

I think I should contribute to the thread. So: something about Fidel and old cars.
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Culise

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2016, 11:30:18 pm »

Well, here's something for fodder.  Mercosur recently suspended Venezuela's membership due to concerns over trade and human rights issues.  Venezuela, naturally, rejects any authority by Mercosur to suspend Venezuela for failing to incorporate the aforementioned requirements for apparently some 130 trade and human rights norms into national law, terming it a coup within Mercosur.  This is somewhat amusing considering its own accession to Mercosur in the first place took place in 2012 during the temporary suspension of Paraguay (the key objectors to its original entry) on democratic grounds (specifically, denouncing the impeachment of Fernando Lugo, which, while legal and constitutional, took place under what was regarded as reasons of highly dubious merit under an unusually-accelerated time frame - the entire process took two days from initial notification to the final vote). 
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2016, 12:49:42 am »

It is political, because human rights are far worse in Colombia, which was never suspended.

Do you also notice how every article about Venezuela specifies vague "human rights abuses" but they never cite any actual information about what those entail? The BBC has has an anti-Chavez thing for at least 15 years too.

Well lets go to Human Rights Watch where they distill down the worst of the worst abuses:
https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

Quote
have enabled the government to intimidate, censor, and prosecute its critics, leading to increasing levels of self-censorship. Leading opposition politicians have been arbitrarily arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and barred from running for office.
So the abuses in Venezuela all happen via legal means: words, lawsuits, etc. There are some police abuses mentioned next, but those existed decades before the socialists even came to power, and most of the mayors/state governments who control the police are right-wing anyway.

Many of the "arbitrary" arrests have been for corruption (and involve politicians from both sides), or involve people who had been supporters of the military coup against the elected government in 2002. Basically, I think if you supported a fascist takeover then you should sort of expect to get a bit of shit afterwards: the specific charges might be trumped up, but it's not quite "arbitrary".

What is clearly lacking from this is any "disappeared" people or assassinations. Basically there's zero evidence of anyone being knocked off in Venezuela for political reasons. Compare that to Colombia:

https://www.hrw.org/americas/colombia
Quote
Army brigades engaged in the systematic execution of thousands of civilians across Colombia between 2002 and 2008. Human rights defenders, trade unionists, journalists, indigenous and Afro-Colombian leaders, and other community activists face death threats and violence, but perpetrators are rarely held accountable.

BTW, it looks like price controls were the sole cause of the supply shortages in Venezuela recently. They lifted the controls in some towns and the stores instantly refilled with goods. Basically, that's the same anti-inflation policy the soviets tried in 1973 that lead to the queues (note that America had gasoline queues due to rationing at the same time).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 01:31:48 am by Reelya »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2016, 01:36:44 am »

Also, heads up, one of the 5 posts following this one, I will find extremely offensive. Which one, will be decided at random.
This one!
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2016, 01:43:16 am »

Also, heads up, one of the 5 posts following this one, I will find extremely offensive. Which one, will be decided at random.
This one!
This post is 100% guaranteed to be more offensive to people who use the username Sergius.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2016, 01:49:51 am »

Also, heads up, one of the 5 posts following this one, I will find extremely offensive. Which one, will be decided at random.
This one!
This post is 100% guaranteed to be more offensive to people who use the username Sergius.
Hahaha! I can play the odds!
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Culise

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2016, 07:20:17 am »

It is political, because human rights are far worse in Colombia, which was never suspended.

Do you also notice how every article about Venezuela specifies vague "human rights abuses" but they never cite any actual information about what those entail? The BBC has has an anti-Chavez thing for at least 15 years too.

Well lets go to Human Rights Watch where they distill down the worst of the worst abuses:
https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

Quote
have enabled the government to intimidate, censor, and prosecute its critics, leading to increasing levels of self-censorship. Leading opposition politicians have been arbitrarily arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and barred from running for office.
So the abuses in Venezuela all happen via legal means: words, lawsuits, etc. There are some police abuses mentioned next, but those existed decades before the socialists even came to power, and most of the mayors/state governments who control the police are right-wing anyway.

Many of the "arbitrary" arrests have been for corruption (and involve politicians from both sides), or involve people who had been supporters of the military coup against the elected government in 2002. Basically, I think if you supported a fascist takeover then you should sort of expect to get a bit of shit afterwards: the specific charges might be trumped up, but it's not quite "arbitrary".

What is clearly lacking from this is any "disappeared" people or assassinations. Basically there's zero evidence of anyone being knocked off in Venezuela for political reasons. Compare that to Colombia:

https://www.hrw.org/americas/colombia
Quote
Army brigades engaged in the systematic execution of thousands of civilians across Colombia between 2002 and 2008. Human rights defenders, trade unionists, journalists, indigenous and Afro-Colombian leaders, and other community activists face death threats and violence, but perpetrators are rarely held accountable.

BTW, it looks like price controls were the sole cause of the supply shortages in Venezuela recently. They lifted the controls in some towns and the stores instantly refilled with goods. Basically, that's the same anti-inflation policy the soviets tried in 1973 that lead to the queues (note that America had gasoline queues due to rationing at the same time).
Honestly, I suspect it's not just politics, though that does play a major role (note that the suspension didn't go through until after recent Brazil's change in President).  Where Maduro and Chavez erred is in not implementing the free trade and and investment legal requirements; a big reason why Argentina (which was conveniently "pro-Chavez before they were against," to mutilate the turn of phrase) and Brazil brought Venezuela in was for the bottom line (cheap market for agricultural goods; plenty of oil for leverage in trade negotiations abroad), and one doesn't threaten the bottom line.  Given the economic unrest, Venezuela shifted from an economic asset to a liability.  Arguably, Venezuela's suspension actually a wee bit less political than some suspensions in the past (Paraguay, as I noted already, which conveniently occurred at the right moment to slide Venezuela right in), though that doesn't say much at all. 

Also, another reason why Colombia was never suspended actually appears to be much simpler: Colombia is not and was never a full member of the Mercosur block, and as an associate member is not held to the same moral standards as full members such as Venezuela as far as I can tell. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 07:24:22 am by Culise »
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2016, 07:27:16 am »

The main reason for the fallout seems to be that the Venezuelan-friendly governments that let them into Mercosur got replaced by right-wing governments in Brazil and Paraguay.

Venezuela was only admitted to Mercosur in 2012, so if the other members had a problem with the Venezuelan Socialists that should have been obvious back then. They're kicking them out due to partisan politics, "human rights abuses" is the cover. Nothing's actually changed since they were admitted.

For rerference, in Brazil the cops kill people:
https://www.hrw.org/americas/brazil
Quote
Chronic human rights problems plague Brazil, including unlawful police killings and torture and ill-treatment of detainees. Many Brazilian prisons and jails are severely overcrowded, and the lack of adequate state control within the prison grounds leaves inmates vulnerable to violence and recruitment by gangs. Other human rights problems include degrading and abusive working conditions, violence against rural activists and indigenous people involved in conflicts over land, and killings of journalists and bloggers because of their work.

Yes, the people accusing Venezuela of human rights abuse have active death squads

Whereas if you read the Venezuela HRW report again it's that "journalists are criticized and must self-censor" and that opposition people get charged with crimes and go to court. No deaths, no state-sanctioned murder squads.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 07:37:33 am by Reelya »
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Culise

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2016, 07:33:18 am »

Actually, a lot has changed with Venezuela's side of things on the economic side of things; inflation and civil unrest weren't nearly as bad in 2012 as they are today (unless you're arguing that at least 180% inflation according to official, massaged government numbers back in 2015 is business as usual).  That's the reason I suspect Argentina, which you'll note is absent from both of our lists of government shifts (I did cite Brazil's shift right as well, you'll note, and while Paraguay did indeed shift, the Colorados were already being a spoiler even in the opposition, so they were always consistent in that; that's why Paraguay's brief suspension was necessary for Venezuelan entry), was willing to go along with the suspension.  Argentina accepted it because they saw Venezuela as a market for food sales.  They now accepted suspension because they don't, or rather, they don't see it as worth propping up economically when Venezuela won't give as well as take. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 07:37:15 am by Culise »
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics Thread: Literally to the South of Ameripol
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2016, 07:38:00 am »

Brazil has active death squads however, read Human Rights Watch's summary. Then compare the worst that's mentioned for Venezuela. They don't even hint at targeted killings against dissidents being a thing in Venezuela, unlike Brazil.

So the whole "human rights" angle is bullshit politics.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 07:40:06 am by Reelya »
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