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[Random_Dragon]

Nice. If so maybe see if thief behavior, as of the latest version, behaves differently? That said, this seems to further suggest that invaders are once again fucky and unpredictable...

[Ulfarr]

Ok, expect my results around the weekend though 

[Ulfarr]

I've taken a look at the newest version and initial results seem promising with only one problem that might be entirely unrelated to the mod itself.

My fortress was established in 125 and I haven't had any* contact until the begining of 128 when the dwarves sent their first siege. Again the initial peace period was extremely helpful to create proper defences and train a 6 kobold squad decently. There are two reasons that might explain why that calm period lasted that long and these are 1) I was focusing so much in making the fortress self sufficient that I had few items that I could trade ( I only reached >1k exported goods after the second caravan) and 2) according to legends viewer, my civ wasn't at war with any of the other civs until 128. Now trade might not matter for triggering sieges but it might affect how wars get started.

*Not even thieves. A single baby snatcher came some time after 128.

The event log (up to 7th month of 130):

Month  Year     Event
1          128      1st Dwarven siege, 10 enemies. (<- Dwarves declare war)
10        128      2nd Dwarven siege, 40 enemies.
4          129      1st Human siege, 10 enemies.  (<- Humans declare war)
7          129      3rd Dwarven siege, 107 enemies.
7          130      1st Elven ambush, 5 enemies (<- We are not officialy at war with them yet)

About the one problem :

 Some time after the 3rd dwarven siege, I got the announcement "A vile force of darkness...." however the siege lifted as soon as I unpaused. A few moments later my kobolds discovered a single goblin snatcher (the were no other units in the unit list either). Legends viewer does record one unnotable battle between the goblins and my fort in the winter of 129 with 5 goblins taking part but that is all I could find.

General observations (mostly unrelated with the current goal of testing thief/siege behavior):

1) There is a destinct lack of mounts in the enemy forces so far. In both previous (43.05) version and my modded (Ambusher - 44.05) one, dwarves would make extensive use of horses during their sieges/ambushes but so far they haven't brought any. It might be that the sieges originated from sites with no mount pops though.

2) Dwarves tend to be dizzy when they spawn.  Cave adaptation perhaps?

3) No enemy has brought any breastplates or greaves so far. Maybe some equipment is reserved (by the ai) for only elite units. Recruits for example will usualy lack armor.

[Random_Dragon]

*Not even thieves. A single baby snatcher came some time after 128.

Ah, that's part of why I really hate this bug. 3 years is probably okay for sieges, but it's way too much for thieves, too much for enemy contact at all. This bug seems extremely hard to work around.

Some time after the 3rd dwarven siege, I got the announcement "A vile force of darkness...." however the siege lifted as soon as I unpaused. A few moments later my kobolds discovered a single goblin snatcher (the were no other units in the unit list either). Legends viewer does record one unnotable battle between the goblins and my fort in the winter of 129 with 5 goblins taking part but that is all I could find.

Odd. Possible bugs found that match that include http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10227 and http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9236.

General observations (mostly unrelated with the current goal of testing thief/siege behavior):

1) There is a destinct lack of mounts in the enemy forces so far. In both previous (43.05) version and my modded (Ambusher - 44.05) one, dwarves would make extensive use of horses during their sieges/ambushes but so far they haven't brought any. It might be that the sieges originated from sites with no mount pops though.

2) Dwarves tend to be dizzy when they spawn.  Cave adaptation perhaps?

3) No enemy has brought any breastplates or greaves so far. Maybe some equipment is reserved (by the ai) for only elite units. Recruits for example will usualy lack armor.

1. Strange. I'm not sure what might cause that. In the old days there was the general expectation that later sieges would use more cavalry and war animals than early, but I'd assume this behavior no longer applies. In which case I'm at a loss for what caused that.

2. If there's no accompanying nausea than it's most likely the lower-level cave adaptation, yeah. First time I've seen invading dwarves afflicted by it. Hell, usually I never see it in tavern visitors either.

3. One thing I might be able to do. Armor level evidently determines how readily the AI will outfit soldiers with a given item. Bandits for example will rarely get anything beyond level 1. Greaves and breastplates are the only items to have armor level 3, which supports this. Lowering armor levels should in theory make invaders show up with armor more often, and earlier.

[Ulfarr]

Quick update:

1) The whole siege-lift-immediately thing hasn't happened again so far. Goblins have sent another siege which worked properly (they also had trolls and beak dogs with them).

2) Dwarves came* once again and they had mounts this time (horses and camels). I believe the mount situation has only to do with whether the site that sends the siege has mount populations or not.

*Most disappointing siege ever! 209 total enemies (soldiers+mounts) and they left after losing 3 recruits.

3) I checked the dizzy dwarves again and they also have nausea.

4) As far as enemy equipment is concerned only breastplates and greaves are missing. Non recruit units will pretty much always have cap/helm, mail shit, leather armor (sometimes), leggings, low/high boots and gauntlets.

Overall there is no shortage of things to kill or gear to salvage.

About thief logic. Have you tried giving trade triggers for dwarven sieges while keeping the general pop trigger low? Maybe that way they'll send thieves after the first one (or two ) migrant wave(s) and sieges after you have had a caravan or two depending on how you play.

[Random_Dragon]

About thief logic. Have you tried giving trade triggers for dwarven sieges while keeping the general pop trigger low? Maybe that way they'll send thieves after the first one (or two ) migrant wave(s) and sieges after you have had a caravan or two depending on how you play.

Not sure how well that'd work, but I have given goblins a trade contact trigger instead of population so they arrive under different conditions.

[Ulfarr]

Well they did sent a snatcher...  I 'm afraid that, at least for the dwarves, the siege trigger is low enough to go directly to sieges, bypassing sending thieves altogether.

[Random_Dragon]

Well they did sent a snatcher...  I 'm afraid that, at least for the dwarves, the siege trigger is low enough to go directly to sieges, bypassing sending thieves altogether.

Though that's exacerbated by the fact it seems thieves either are as slow to get sent as sieges, or possibly you don't get the contact indicator until they're discovered.

[Random_Dragon]

Well, it took a smol while but I did the thing with lowering the armorlevel of breastplates and greaves. As for why it took so long?

Kobold Kamp, now with with 100% less wooden-pick-related bugs. Native copper and native silver can now be seen in use for picks, weapons, and ammo, in addition to wooden weapons and ammo. This lets you not only embark with them but also see them in caravans.

One issue I noticed with this initially was the fact that embark and caravan included otherwise unusable bars of worked native copper and silver. So I decided to roll with it, via having these native metal weapons make use of bars instead of the stone directly, whereas other uses for native metals still work just as with other stone crafts.

This also supports another addition: the option to simply break down looted metal weapons and armor. While this is useful for oversized enemy weapons, since armorsmithing is still too complex for kobolds it's generally better to refit metal armor than to break it down, but it still gives a use for metal armor that the player doesn't want to try and convert and incorporate into their uniform.

[philli46]

Just food for thought, but could the lack of contact/thieves/ambushes/sieges be due to the fact that kobold sites are hidden and don't appear on the map? Don't know much about it, but the in fort I'm playing now the humans and goblins don't seem to know about my existence yet. I got spring caravans from the elves but I think that's due to another edit I've made somewhere else, not sure if its part of the mod as I was under the impression that all other civs would be hostile... (no matter, slaughter enough merchants and they'll attack like everyone else. I think maybe they got upset when I stole their giant skunk.)

Started in year 5, around the end of year 7 the elves ambushed. (They got poor Gaykus, my legendary miner. Took all 6 of them to get past his masterful pick-axe skills, he died a hero's death. Held them at the surface long enough for my military to get organized and engage, saved many lives...) Anywho, haven't heard from the elves since, I think the goblins are giving them a hard time. Scouts sent to investigate are finding a lot of abandoned sites. Good chance they're gonna die out.

One odd thing I've noticed is that none of the kobold caravans that come have any goods with them. They still accept offerings though so i can keep raising my exported wealth. (this may be something I've done wrong while integrating the mod with my raws. Just wondering if anyone knew how to fix this.)

I'm going to try and raid a smaller goblin pit nearby, see if I can't alert them to my presence. I'll let you know how that works!

[philli46]

Aaand update: giant, fire breathing, winged worms are really bad for the development of a fortress... it was a massacre, there were no survivors. Probably one of the best forts I've played though, lots of fun! Sad though because I had to watch the Shaman, his wife, and his 7 or 8 children get ripped apart in the meeting hall. 2 of his sons were in the military, and his eldest daughter worked beside him as a healer. His wife liked to wander the caves collecting webs to make silk. I got really attached to that family. I'm sad they're gone...

[Ulfarr]

Just food for thought, but could the lack of contact/thieves/ambushes/sieges be due to the fact that kobold sites are hidden and don't appear on the map?

Maybe, personaly I haven't noticed any difference by revealing caves through advanced world gen, but that might just not affect other non-player civs.

 I also think it has to do with Toady changing something in the latest versions ( ie raids system), that delays war declarations in world gen. Maybe because kobolds don't produce artifacts, other civs don't bother that much with them during world gen. In my last couple of fortresses (versions 44.05 - 44.07), my kobolds always start at peace with pretty much everyone (according to the "c" screen) and stay like that untill some of the progress triggers activate causing other civs to declare war on me (I haven't test starting wars on my own through raids yet).

[Random_Dragon]

Just food for thought, but could the lack of contact/thieves/ambushes/sieges be due to the fact that kobold sites are hidden and don't appear on the map? Don't know much about it, but the in fort I'm playing now the humans and goblins don't seem to know about my existence yet. I got spring caravans from the elves but I think that's due to another edit I've made somewhere else, not sure if its part of the mod as I was under the impression that all other civs would be hostile... (no matter, slaughter enough merchants and they'll attack like everyone else. I think maybe they got upset when I stole their giant skunk.)

Started in year 5, around the end of year 7 the elves ambushed. (They got poor Gaykus, my legendary miner. Took all 6 of them to get past his masterful pick-axe skills, he died a hero's death. Held them at the surface long enough for my military to get organized and engage, saved many lives...) Anywho, haven't heard from the elves since, I think the goblins are giving them a hard time. Scouts sent to investigate are finding a lot of abandoned sites. Good chance they're gonna die out.

One odd thing I've noticed is that none of the kobold caravans that come have any goods with them. They still accept offerings though so i can keep raising my exported wealth. (this may be something I've done wrong while integrating the mod with my raws. Just wondering if anyone knew how to fix this.)

I'm going to try and raid a smaller goblin pit nearby, see if I can't alert them to my presence. I'll let you know how that works!

1. In my latest test run of Kobold Kamp, I did indeed get elven ambushes starting in the fort's second year. Which by DF2012 standards seems acceptable. The lack of thieves is irritating though. I doubt it's because of cave site type though. Highly-unpredictable invader responses are a well-known issue in current DF.

2. ...friendly elves? Kobolds not bringing any goods? Yes, something is absolutely broken there. Did you remember to port of the changes that make mountain goats viable as pack animals? Be default those are the only animals they're guaranteed to have, and the only other pack animal they MIGHT obtain in worldgen would be yaks.

I also think it has to do with Toady changing something in the latest versions ( ie raids system), that delays war declarations in world gen. Maybe because kobolds don't produce artifacts, other civs don't bother that much with them during world gen. In my last couple of fortresses (versions 44.05 - 44.07), my kobolds always start at peace with pretty much everyone (according to the "c" screen) and stay like that untill some of the progress triggers activate causing other civs to declare war on me (I haven't test starting wars on my own through raids yet).

ITEM_THIEF and BABYSNATCHER logic causes a civ to act with hostility to civs that lack the token (and vice-versa if a thieving/snatching civ is playable), even when a state of war is declared. You can see this in vanilla, if you get contact with goblins without provoking them via raids, and they haven't declared war in worldgen (a crapshoot because goblins tend to be the ones declaring wars most often) you'll see them listed as at peace with you, even as they send sieges after you.

That's a thing that's been around since at least the DF2012 days.

[philli46]

Did you remember to port of the changes that make mountain goats viable as pack animals? Be default those are the only animals they're guaranteed to have, and the only other pack animal they MIGHT obtain in worldgen would be yaks.

Figured it out, I forgot to add the PACK_ANIMAL tag to mountain goats. It was my bad. I think it should be fixed though. Thanks for your help!

Still looking into why the elves are friendly. I honestly don't mind it, gives me some more trading options in the early game. Still want to know what causes it though!

Are there any other creature raws you've edited that I might've missed? I have to go in and make the changes manually because my raws are already heavily modified with balance tweaks and snippets of other mods.

Edit: Also forgot to give them a TRADE_CAPACITY value, and didn't make them milk-able. Just for kicks I gave them wool instead of hair, should hopefully give me a reliable source of cloth that doesn't involve cave exploration and giant fiery worms...

[Random_Dragon]

Are there any other creature raws you've edited that I might've missed? I have to go in and make the changes manually because my raws are already heavily modified with balance tweaks and snippets of other mods.

Yeah, milking, brewing/cheesemaking from the milk, and getting usable wool were all added to mountain goats if I recall.

Some other creatures from mountainous biomes were also given animal-class tokens to allow kobolds to potentially pick them up during worldgen, and other instances of animals that've been historically used for fabric but aren't in vanilla had that added to them.

However, for the majority of creatures the only change is telling the game to remove the "fake yarn" material from hairless creatures, as that's part of letting you spin haircloth from otherwise unusable critters. Without the hair itself to be turned into that yarn, the lack of these tokens shouldn't affect gameplay, just that you'll see inaccessible shit like "giant worm hair/yarn/what-have-you" in stockpile entries, and probably available in arena mode material selection.

I'd like the find a more viable way that doesn't either:
1. Prevent you from stockpiling haircloth.
or
2. Enable civs to show up with cat hair clothes and other absurd shit.