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[cochramd]

What an odd thread. The handful of people I've mentioned Dwarf Fortress to didn't care much. Let's not make Dwarf Fortress out to be some obscure, strange pastime that others somehow find weird and interesting. It's just a game.

It also happens to be an exceedingly important game, on many levels! There's nothing else quite like it.

I once told a new acquaintance about how all I ever really played was Dwarf Fortress. He replied with: "oh, you're one of those people." The car was dark but his tone implied eye-rolling. I'm still not sure what he meant, and since he ended up trying to convince me of the relative merits of polygamy I'm not certain that I care to know.

Polygamy has merits beyond "you can score with multiple chicks and it's not cheating"?

[Niddhoger]

What an odd thread. The handful of people I've mentioned Dwarf Fortress to didn't care much. Let's not make Dwarf Fortress out to be some obscure, strange pastime that others somehow find weird and interesting. It's just a game.

It also happens to be an exceedingly important game, on many levels! There's nothing else quite like it.

I once told a new acquaintance about how all I ever really played was Dwarf Fortress. He replied with: "oh, you're one of those people." The car was dark but his tone implied eye-rolling. I'm still not sure what he meant, and since he ended up trying to convince me of the relative merits of polygamy I'm not certain that I care to know.

Polygamy has merits beyond "you can score with multiple chicks and it's not cheating"?

Ummmm in some cultures it was a way of keeping more land in the family while not splitting the father's land into just completely ridiculous proportions.  Ancient Tibet actually had an interesting version where brothers would marry the same woman.  Since... there really isn't much farmland available in the worlds tallest mountain range, and whichever man the wife actually has kids from will still be a close blood relation to the other(s).  It was... the best of a terrible situation?

Of course, that only happened in the days of subsistence farming and... you know... Tibet.  In modern Western society? All the "benefits" boil down to are just different shades of misogyny. 

[frightlever]

i hold the opposite position. when i see graphic tiles -- with those disgusting patches of grass that look out of place -- i want to vomit and ask myself how could anyone play that. ascii on the other hand looks belonged and streamlined. its really just a matter of taste though

If the game had used a graphical tileset from the beginning no-one would be suggesting now that it should be replaced with ASCII, for clarity.

False, many rooguelike players ask for ascii tile sets for roguelikes.
Also, I prefer ascii .

Citation needed.

Then lets say, if Roguelikes didn't have an ASCII past, no-one would look at a graphical tileset and think that ASCII could convey more information that graphics, since my original assertion was clearly too broad.

The saying is, literally, a picture is worth a thousand words. There are obvious advantages to using ASCII from a development point of view, but none that relate to interface clarity. Again, no-one would ask for ASCII if ASCII wasn't already established in the history of the genre. It's a relic that only serves a purpose because the game doesn't have better graphical support. Which, I am aware, is akin to saying the only reason we live on land is because we can't breath water. It's how it is.

ASCII is a terrible alternative to a good tileset, but maintaining a tileset is vastly more complicated and inherently less stable than using ASCII.

You could play chess with checkers pieces that had been identified with dots to differentiate them. You'd quickly get used to it and probably have no trouble playing a game after 15 or 20 minutes. But a little wood puck with dots on it is not a better ideogram than a carved horse, with all that implies. In my opinion.

[Geltor]

i hold the opposite position. when i see graphic tiles -- with those disgusting patches of grass that look out of place -- i want to vomit and ask myself how could anyone play that. ascii on the other hand looks belonged and streamlined. its really just a matter of taste though

If the game had used a graphical tileset from the beginning no-one would be suggesting now that it should be replaced with ASCII, for clarity.

False, many rooguelike players ask for ascii tile sets for roguelikes.
Also, I prefer ascii .

Citation needed.

Then lets say, if Roguelikes didn't have an ASCII past, no-one would look at a graphical tileset and think that ASCII could convey more information that graphics, since my original assertion was clearly too broad.

The saying is, literally, a picture is worth a thousand words. There are obvious advantages to using ASCII from a development point of view, but none that relate to interface clarity. Again, no-one would ask for ASCII if ASCII wasn't already established in the history of the genre. It's a relic that only serves a purpose because the game doesn't have better graphical support. Which, I am aware, is akin to saying the only reason we live on land is because we can't breath water. It's how it is.

ASCII is a terrible alternative to a good tileset, but maintaining a tileset is vastly more complicated and inherently less stable than using ASCII.

You could play chess with checkers pieces that had been identified with dots to differentiate them. You'd quickly get used to it and probably have no trouble playing a game after 15 or 20 minutes. But a little wood puck with dots on it is not a better ideogram than a carved horse, with all that implies. In my opinion.

its purely a matter of taste and i think that youre taking the functionality perspective too far. while perhaps not as initially intuitive, i prefer ascii because it makes the game less crude-looking and equal in tones of design. whenever i look at people playing df with tilesets i struggle to understand what everything is (thus not as initially intuitive as they claim to be), and until i actually examine something, only then i know what it is. therefore its not much different from ascii.

also like you said, ascii is much more maintainable for many reasons which are obvious. i think that ascii was inevitable for its ease of implementation and simplistic, yet powerful charm. its also arguable that ascii is allows independent developers to focus on the complexity of the game without investing in more sophisticated graphics.

[Max™]

Having spent a lot of time making Ascii better, *thbppppttttttttrrrrriippppplurrchhh* to you too!

[Random_Dragon]

Having spent a lot of time making Ascii better, *thbppppttttttttrrrrriippppplurrchhh* to you too!

I'll be sticking with my non-blurry graphics. ;w;

[Dirst]

I made 32x32 graphics for my handful of modded creatures, and even animated 128x128 Stonesense sprites that probably no one but me actually looks at... But I also add support for ASCII right in the installation instructions.  And Max has done wonders with the ASCII, too.

[Random_Dragon]

Meanwhile I keep thinking I want to give ASCII kobolds in kobold kamp a ḱ or k̈ for soldiers, but then it turns out to be too much hassle adding Optional Stuff for so little benefit. ._.

[Shonai_Dweller]

So, anyone got any ideas how to represent the totally random playable races threatened by the mythgen update set at 'fantasy on maximum' with a graphical tileset?

[TheBiggerFish]

@Shonai:Procedural tile generation based on number of limbs, etc. and average colors of histfigs?

Probably a crazy idea.

[Max™]

Meanwhile I keep thinking I want to give ASCII kobolds in kobold kamp a ḱ or k̈ for soldiers, but then it turns out to be too much hassle adding Optional Stuff for so little benefit. ._.

Just do a little square like the dorfletter tile uses, put it over the 1/2 tile.

[pisskop]

ive honestly never seen somebody who thought df wascoding.

theyve asked what it was, but, never thought codes.


i get 'that g and that k are fighting", but it always seems people know its not code.

[Random_Dragon]

Meanwhile I keep thinking I want to give ASCII kobolds in kobold kamp a ḱ or k̈ for soldiers, but then it turns out to be too much hassle adding Optional Stuff for so little benefit. ._.

Just do a little square like the dorfletter tile uses, put it over the 1/2 tile.

The issue is I have to not only provide the replacement tilesets, but inform players to make use of them. And then I add an optional override for creature_standard, and tell them not to use the other version unless they also use the tilesets.

That's multiple extra steps just for kobold soldiers not resembling civvies. :V

Meanwhile, for dipscripts...I can change seemingly every essential fort message EXCEPT what displays when the homeland's caravan starts trading. One of the things I'd want to change most.

[Button]

Meanwhile I keep thinking I want to give ASCII kobolds in kobold kamp a ḱ or k̈ for soldiers, but then it turns out to be too much hassle adding Optional Stuff for so little benefit. ._.

Just do a little square like the dorfletter tile uses, put it over the 1/2 tile.

The issue is I have to not only provide the replacement tilesets, but inform players to make use of them. And then I add an optional override for creature_standard, and tell them not to use the other version unless they also use the tilesets.

That's multiple extra steps just for kobold soldiers not resembling civvies. :V

Couldn't you include it as creature graphics instead of modifying the tileset?

[Random_Dragon]

Couldn't you include it as creature graphics instead of modifying the tileset?

I've considered that as well. It might be the simplest option in fact. Though I'd be sorely tempted to provide a version for each possible ASCII set. >.>